stat/skill potion

[Executioneer]

This means that hybrid characters like mine (a melee fighter with enough intelligence to wear some intelligence based mythic) would need to think about if it is really a good idea to put that many points in intelligence, because if I do so then I will sacrifice some life, damage, DA...etc just for being able to wear certain items. Whereas now I only need to farm for some time and put 1000 point in every attribute. Job done.

If people want to cheat they can always use Defiler.

imo it's useless debating. as you already said, cheats can be done through defiler. plus if you do not want to cheat, do not put a 1000 attributes in your char. you know it would break the game, so simply don't do it.

if i wanted to cheat, i would not go to TQ vault and make a duplicate of the potions i found, i would just grant him 200 skills points directly, as amgoz pointed out. what's more, increasing their value would make people ignore them, so they will be useless.

the choice i welcome was 3 attribute points or a skill point, when crafting a lesser skill pot. i don't think there is an ideal "solution", just face the difficulty provided with the new mechanics and leave it at that. without twinking, it's fairly difficult.

also, if someone has built a char capable of beating bosses in massboss, he's only playing the game the way he likes it. primarily, that's why we all are playing the SV mod, for a better TQ experience and an enjoyable one.

one more thing, if you cheat you are free to do so. no one is going to take that away from you. the end result however, is a different story.

[Kress]

imo it's useless debating. as you already said, cheats can be done through defiler. plus if you do not want to cheat, do not put a 1000 attributes in your char. you know it would break the game, so simply don't do it.

I did NOT say I would put 1000 points into every attributes by cheating. You misundertood it. Putting that much point in attributes is completely legal in this mod as long as the money for it is farmed properly and not given by defiler. Certainly, you don't even need that many points, even 100 could make a serious difference.

You and amgoz1 saying "cheating can be done whatever we do with this mod and we cannot do anything to prevent it" is a good reason only for not trying to solve the problem (which I know is not the case).
Ideally, games have a more or less balanced structure, in case of TQ one would play it for couple of months and would start to figure out things, realizing what combination of masteries and skills are more effective in a given situation. You get a sense of how that certain game is played, what is the normal speed of character progress, generally what items drop in certain part of the game...etc. Many many things. Ideally, this whole experience is the result of what the developers had in their head about interesting, exciting, and rewarding gameplay, where you can play from the start of the game to the very end of it and enjoy it the whole time (more or less). The longer it is enjoyable, the better the game is, I guess.

If we have a mod (like Underlord or Soulvizier..etc) for enhancing gaming experience in one way or another, this whole structure might turn upside down thanks to the new things that are implemented. Now if we strive to keep the balance or even make the original game more balanced, developers have to (imo) restrict and control the player - as much as the game itself is capable - to make him/her feel what is normal and what is unusual, what happens rarely, or never in the game. I for one don't think it is good that with a little effort one can have so many extra attribute points even if one has a very high level char. And although it is true that anyone can use cheats, that does not mean one should not try to make the game itself better.
Just as you could cheat in the original game for example by duping certain items or giving unlimited gold, these things still were NOT implemented in the game itself. The game itself restricted you for your own sake.
Developers knew people would cheat, but they had done their part by giving a structural intergrity to the game. The rest is up to those who use it, either with or without cheat.

I hope it is clear now why I wanted to address this issue and why I think just because cheats exist that does not mean we cannot have a well thought out, balanced and better game.
Anyway these are just my thoughts. Feel free to disagree. I just try to contribute to this project with what I think I can.

[Violos]

It's tempting to simply remove the ability to create and buy them, as there are balance problems associated with both methods.

You could make an ingredient that only drops from non-respawning quest monsters.

[amgoz1]

I hope it is clear now why I wanted to address this issue and why I think just because cheats exist that does not mean we cannot have a well thought out, balanced and better game.
Anyway these are just my thoughts. Feel free to disagree. I just try to contribute to this project with what I think I can.

I agree with this, what I was trying to say is that there can be no perfect system with how they currently work, even if you could only get 1 stat potion per character, you would be able to hoard them and move them all to a single character and break the balance that way.

You could make an ingredient that only drops from non-respawning quest monsters.

An option is removing the formula completely and make the dropped stat pots activate immediately on pickup and then only have the them drop from non-respawning monsters and first kills on bosses. In singleplayer there would be no way to abuse this without cheating in some way.

[Shalie]

You could make an ingredient that only drops from non-respawning quest monsters.

You could still "farm" that by creating new characters and passing them high level gear, like people did in D2 with the hellforge.

[jowshie]

I agree with this, what I was trying to say is that there can be no perfect system with how they currently work, even if you could only get 1 stat potion per character, you would be able to hoard them and move them all to a single character and break the balance that way.


An option is removing the formula completely and make the dropped stat pots activate immediately on pickup and then only have the them drop from non-respawning monsters and first kills on bosses. In singleplayer there would be no way to abuse this without cheating in some way.

The only issue with this solution would be that they no longer suit the purpose of having them in the game, allowing you to continue to improve your character after you have completed the story and levels are coming slowly.

If this is a solution you could just as easily give slightly more stat points per level, couldn't you?

I suppose it would be rewarding progress through the story as opposed to simply experience, but it does not seem like a great fit...

[Violos]

You could still "farm" that by creating new characters and passing them high level gear, like people did in D2 with the hellforge.

Sure could. And once could still cheat / multiply them.

But to those who want to earn it that is still an incentive for some real work if the ingredient is rare enough. I use Erebus Crystals, for example, and those don't come cheap.


@Amgoz
That version is cheat-proof but more like a quest reward. Not sure if that is worth giving up the crafting part.
Since the new characters will be missing out on the extra stats when they give them to another, I think it's actually a viable option to allow this.
If someone wants to make a super-pimped uber char that way, so be it. The longer the game lasts for him.

Thinking of it, I actually like that last idea enough to maybe include it too.

[amgoz1]

@Amgoz
That version is cheat-proof but more like a quest reward. Not sure if that is worth giving up the crafting part.
Since the new characters will be missing out on the extra stats when they give them to another, I think it's actually a viable option to allow this.
If someone wants to make a super-pimped uber char that way, so be it. The longer the game lasts for him.

Yeah I'm not too fond of it either, I don't think that such a degree of limitation is necessary.
I'll be removing the formula and potion from the shop and we'll see how it fares and tweak it from there.

[polkaman]

Yeah I'm not too fond of it either, I don't think that such a degree of limitation is necessary.
I'll be removing the formula and potion from the shop and we'll see how it fares and tweak it from there.

What about replacing the bought ones with potions that increases Health and Energy by a small amount? Like, 20-25 each?

[Mrbanisher]

So is it legit to use such potions or will you remove them? Personally I don't like them very much. I am keeping a list of how many I used so I can reverse.