Guardian or Champion: Most fun?

[Leondegrance]

Any thoughts on this? I'm looking to use the wolves for their damage and boosting mine. I tend to enjoy high DPS toons (Slayer my favorite) but have used Warfare a lot in the past. Will the Guardian approach Champ DPS? Ultimately though, fun factor is my biggest concern. Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[Violos]

Champion, thanks to Battle Standard, is unrivalled when it comes to wolf damage. And packs a punch himself with their SotP.

Guardian is a tank and good at Plague'ing enemies who melee him, but the wolves have more of a support role. If you prefer being The Beast Master, Champion is for you.

[Irma2]

It's purely subjective but, in my case, I don't really find any Defense builds to be fun. They're almost all grinders in my experience. Thunk, thunk, thunk, hold down LMB on mobs type of builds. Very effective and survivable, just not much fun.

Warfare, on the other hand, is a blast. I've never played a Warfare build I didn't love, even Battlemage and Thane. There's something about watching that yellow ring under your feet grow and grow, Warwinding into mobs, seeing bodies flying everywhere, dropping a BS and siccing your Ancestors on bosses, that just never gets old or stale.

But, as I say, that's subjective on my part. Others may love their Defenders and loathe Warfare.

I will say this, though. If your builds are anything like mine, your Champ will do a lot more damage than your Guardian. Warfare trumps everything except Hunting in damage output. Put them together in a Slayer and, well, you've played one so you know...

I don't know if I'm doing something wrong with my Defense builds. I've read the theory about how having shield as a weapon should match if not exceed dual wielding's output. But it just doesn't. Maybe shield passives >>> dual wielding on its own. But then Warfare gets Onslaught too...

I have every type of Defense melee toon and most really battled in Epic. It's not like they have bad gear. Most had items like Phorkos' Trident and Shield of the Hideous Visage which, in Epic, are way better than any greens you can find. The toon rushes into a trash mob and you hear the satisfying thwack of a shield passive proccing. Then you look at the monster's health bar and it's gone down by 30%. At the same point and with the same level of gear, my Warfare toons are sending trash mobs into orbit.

[P.A.C.]

I have a champion myself,level 15 (or more) and so far it is doing a HUGE damage.You know it is so much fun when you see your wolves with a maxed battle standard there,taking all the bosses down within 5-7 seconds.Plus whenever you want,u just drop the standard and you turn the wolves' killing spree into a G-G-GODLIKE stance.

The guardian however is not so much fun as it is mostly taking the aggro off the mobs so that they focus you instead of wolves.Dont do that.Combine the wolves survival instinct with the battle standard.

Standard:35% dmg absorption.
Survival instinct:88% dmg absorption.
88+35=123% dmg absorption

Dont forget about the fact,that the standard will give you and your wolves +1 to all skills and about 170 dmg.
+ skill item and the standard will let you summon 3 wolves.

So u see that the wolves can fight the mobs being totally immortal .

So shortly-definitely take champion .

P.A.C.

[Violos]

Actually Survival is capped at 80% while BS goes a bit higher, and it's multiplicatve so more like
(1-0.8) * (1-0.4) = 12% damage left.

But still, yeah, they're pretty good.
You can find some numbers on the Champ in my pet thread.

[Solitaire]

45% for BS. So 89% Damage Absorption with both in effect. But also bear in mind that whenever you use BS all Wolves in range get 45% Damage Absorption all the time even at full health - they don't have to wait to go down to low health to get some significantly boosted durability

[P.A.C.]

Violos said:

Actually Survival is capped at 80% while BS goes a bit higher, and it's multiplicatve so more like
(1-0.8) * (1-0.4) = 12% damage left.

So ur basically telling me that the two skills actually dont add to each other?I thought they do .

Solitaire said:

45% for BS. So 89% Damage Absorption with both in effect. But also bear in mind that whenever you use BS all Wolves in range get 45% Damage Absorption all the time even at full health - they don't have to wait to go down to low health to get some significantly boosted durability

True,but mind that the BS will not move itself,and u have a minute of a cooldown.Sometimes i drop it just to grant those mobs a free journey to the space,and then comes an orange name boss and the standard is gone-Yew T_T.Then u just have to count on their Survival instinct .

[Leondegrance]

Much thanks for all the feedback! Irma2, I feel your whole reply man. I have actually already started the Guardian, but was wanting the feedback as the Defense piece is boring me to death. I too like the set in theory, but my few Defense toons have never reached Warfare carnage. Seeing as to how these builds won't get the full effect until Epic when Wolves become viable, you have all saved me some time and fun-factor and will switch to Champion.

Another question though: What are your thoughts on the development of the Wolf line? I see a lot of recommendations of only 1 pt for Maul and Survival Instinct. Although I saw a guide from Shadowshire once that said that Maul was outstanding in legendary. P.A.C, it sounds like you recommend a max on Surv Instinct, and from your figures I have to agree. Any other thoughts?

[P.A.C.]

No worries mate,we are here to help .

Well true,if you go with a pet build and will rely on them (make sure the wolves take the aggro) then they will benefit A LOT from the survival instinct as it will make your every battle faster and more supported.Im not too experienced with a champion tho, im trying to experiment if wolves with the abs from both SI and the standard can survive those wyrms and tigers.

Remember tho that u shouldnt develop survival instinct until you reach epic.Thats it, all throughout normal you take the aggro.Now here is what i develop throughout normal:

first mastery: nature

CotW:get the wolves to level 7 ASAP.then 1 point wonder in maul because it reduces enemys health,but doesnt do much dmg.

After you have 7 points in wolves and 1 point in maul,you might think you want 1 point wonder in Heart of oak.it is up to you if you want that 10% total speed or not.i prefered to save my skill points until level 8 when i reach the warfare mastery.

Second mastery: warfare

as you know i was saving skill points.now i will invest them in the mastery until i can start maxing the battle standard.

Battle standard: 10/10 ASAP.Boosts huge dmg to you (try fighting with fists near a battle standard, IT IS SO MUCH FUN !),your pets,dmg absorption and + skills.A lot in one ;>.

once you have it maxed,you will be an anti boss whenever you see one.Dont forget that you can now drop 1 point at mystic since the standard gives you + to skills,so with wolves at 6/16 you can still have 7/16.

Now you either do the warfare mastery (i suggest the dual wield plus the weapon mastery) or the nature side,where you get 1 point wonder in nymph and max SOTP.SOTP will give you the total speed,and with HoO it will equal +25% total speed.That will increase your killing spree.

So at the end of normal I intend to have my build this way:

CotW:6/1/1/12
HoO:1/0/0 Unless i will have health problems in act 3 i will see about that.
Nymph:1/0/0

Warfare:
standard:10/10

Either plague or ancestral horn.

So thats pretty it .Once you hit epic start investing in SI if you want your wolves to tank(mine dont take the aggro,so i have to do it for them T_T, but mby i will sort it out ) or just leave them with maxed SOTP for the dmg bonus and speed, and invest in warfare.It is all your choice. Either way you will guarantee those mobs a free journey to the space .

And remember that you can still rely on other guys proposals,i have played a wanderer a lot, im just experimenting with a champion.

P.A.C.

[Irma2]

I didn't develop the Wolves at all, beyond 18/16 to get the third one and SotP maxed to help my damage. Champ has too many skills to boost imo. Just getting Onslaught, Dual Wield, Battle Standard trees filled out, along with Weapon Training, Dodge Attack, War Wind, and some points in War Horn and Ancestors is a big ask. Considering that I want HoO and the Plague line maxed as well, I had no points left over for either Maul or Survival Instinct.

That said, I don't play mine as a petmaster at all. It's a Warfare dual wielder that gets big Health (HoO), big damage (SotP) and a big AoE debuff/protector (Plague). I take all the aggro, the Wolves are just there to howl for my benefit.

I also limit my investment in pet skills anyway due to Mastery shrines and +skills gear. By the end of Act I Legendary, I will expect to have gathered +3 SBC, a +2 amulet (Druid's at least, if not Sacred), a Hallowed helm, and probably more +skills on swap-out items like Deimos, Alex's Cuirass, Phorkos' Trident and whatnot. There are also a bunch of Str items that give +1 to Nature skills, such as Warden's Faith/Wrath and several others.

If I find a Mastery shrine and have +3 SBC, Druid's/Sacred ammy, Hallowed helm, Phorkos, Deimos/Warden's Faith and then drop a Battle Standard as well when casting the Wolves, their single point in Maul & SI becomes level 14 Maul & SI. And that's a fairly conservative estimate of how many +skills you can get. Add in Druidic Wreath, Jungleroot Greaves, Alex's Cuirass, and/or another +1 to the Hallowed helm from a Shards of Erebus and the numbers get astronomical.

If I get this sort of gear, I can also reduce the investment in Call of the Wild and SotP yet still have both maxed. After casting the Wolves/Nymph, I switch to my normal dual-wielding combat gear and off I go.