Infinite stack potions, and suggested potion changes

[Winter Dragon]

Yes I did read the post about energy potions before writing this;

The first part of my post is more one of 'cosmetic convenience.' It'd be a lot tidier if potions stacked in one slot rather than lots of 5. Or at least make them stack to lots of 20 just to keep them localized in your inventory better. Nothing irritates me more than seeing them scattered across 4 lots of inventory space. Defiler has a mod option to infinitely stack them, it's a similar result to what I'm talking about.

The next part of my post deals with the use and availability of potions, this can apply to energy as well but I'm looking more at health here. I have two arguments to make:

1) Over-availability

Potions drop from most packs of monsters outside or in dungeons. They drop from chests and treasure containers. You get them from quests, and they're available from merchants in any city or town in infinite supply. My argument is they're too readily available and make the game too easy. I seldom ever need to buy them from merchants so many drop in the world, and the ones I collect I don't need to use that often, maybe the odd boss fight or if I get several packs of mobs (in which case I should retreat or use some strategy to work around the problem.)

a) eliminate potions from merchants.
b) eliminate potions from monsters and treasure drops.
c) limit the number a merchant can sell each day/night cycle.
d) limit the number a player can carry at any one time.

* I don't think any of these are feasible or practical solutions, but when you're presenting an argument I think it's good to list as many ideas as possible to show you've given the subject some thought.


2) They nullify the immediate benefits of healing abilities and stats attributed to restoration

I've played a healing role and a tanking role, and in both cases health potions have ruined the fun. When I cast a heal on my friends they've already popped a health potion, making my powerful heal mostly worthless. As a tank it's all too tempting to do the same thing. Assign the right mouse button to health potions and carry 50 or so from one town to the next pretty much makes me invulnerable.

e) increase the cooldown from 6 seconds to maybe 30 or more. Potions will still be useful, but they won't let you stand defiantly in one spot until you've killed everything. This could also apply to energy potions.

* I think this has more merit because you have full control over the duration and strength of a potion's effects. 30 is just an arbitrary number I came up with, please use a lesser number if you think that's too long.

Let's not forget the usefulness of +Health Regeneration and life stealing stats. If you equip your character properly, be it heavy dps to deal with threats quickly, or the aforementioned stats to soak up the damage long enough to kill them off one by one it is possible to play without using potions every six seconds in combat.

Even if no one cares for these suggestions I'll be making a mod that tries each of the ideas out, starting with increasing the cooldown.



* Comments added 30.09.09 for clarification. Original text is unchanged.

[ASYLUM101]

1a. Possibility, but then when you're in dire need of potions, you won't be able to find any. :/
1b. This sounds like a better solution. I mean, what the hell do the monsters carry potions around for if they don't use them? Who knows how long that health potion was in that treasure chest? It might be flat or stale! As for quest rewards, who wants that as a reward?
1c. I like this idea, though I'm not sure how it'd be possible with the current engine. I think what MIGHT be possible, is to give them a stock limit like scrolls, then when you buy them out, you have to find another shop. This would only cause people to shop farm for pots, which is something no one really wants to do for something that should be readily available. Nerfing them sounds like a better idea than removing them.
1d. They already are limited, lol. Technically, you're only supposed to carry stacks of 5 pots. 20 mana and health pots alone takes up 8 slots in your inventory, which for me is a hassle. I put the infinite stack mod because it's a pain. What is possible, is to change the stack to a higher number like 25 or something. I dunno if you can lock the amount of potions one can carry though.
2e.I agree about this point, I had a soothsayer play in a 6 player Xmax game, and I had tons of fun as a support caster. Life Drain Cascade, pets and regrowth for support is amazing. And on xmax with 6 fresh players, it's actually hard and regrowth actually helps. And tanks, characters like spellbreakers or spellbinders never really need healing. If they need the healing, they die in seconds. Conquerors or Templars, should never really need healing anyway, but if you have a support healer, you should be able to restrict yourself to let the healer fix you up.

Healing pots have been discussed in the balance patch discussion, something they've mentioned was to make the player prone to attacks while healing(like - defense ability) or have the player slowed so he can't kill as much while attacking.

Even adding an animation to it would be better, maybe like a warhorn type animation with the appropriate mesh to give the appearance of the player actually drinking the potion.

IMO, 30 seconds is kinda long, but it does need to be nerfed.

[gasconron]

this probably only applies to your game in normal... this will be a HORRIBLE update as it hits people hard in Legendary or those using mods to increase number of monsters or difficulty or both...

Update 1, highly favors classes that can go with minimal or no potions at all like Nature, Dream, Defense (only health regen) and Spirit. A lot of classes and builds are "potion whores" and can't go without them. *rant* What so you expect every player to use these masteries as 1 of their 2? What about the mana pot whore elementalist... The health pot hungry melee-toons that don't use Nature, Dream or Def? Are you expecting them to be wearing -% energy cost gear or damage to health convert gear? Or probably you were thinking of giving them 100% CtaP & CtDA gear? As if the game, didn't have enough builds that were GEAR reliant, now you just made it more so... This is probably one of the worst ideas, I've ever heard in an attempt to increase the difficulty of the game. *end of rant* - - this is certainly the reason why I never, play no-potions challenge in single player since it's like I'm pre-determined to use one of these 4 masteries. And 1 thing I hate the most is being told what to do, instead of what I want to do.

Update 2 will only be viable in multiplayer... you wreck certain pet builds that rely on the fast recharge of the heals to heal their pets, who are tanking for their a**es in Single Player. Mid-level Soothsayer's Rant (in xmax/uber): *rant* "Wth... my wolves are dead... my Lich is barely alive tanking Yaoguai/Barmanu/Typhon (x3), I need to heal him... ****it, I need to heal him again...wtf!!! 30 seconds, who the hell thought of this s***... that's it, I quit my profession!" *end of rant*

[Winter Dragon]

this probably only applies to your game in normal... this will be a HORRIBLE update as it hits people hard in Legendary or those using mods to increase number of monsters or difficulty or both...

Please pardon me for not stating I haven't played in legendary yet. So far, it's **** easy. There are way too many health and energy potion drops and the cooldown of six seconds is a joke.

The good news is there's more than one version of each health potion type. There's over 10 variants in fact, so it means if any changes are considered the later game ones could be left alone if it's as bad as you forecast.

Update 1, highly favors classes that can go with minimal or no potions at all like Nature, Dream, Defense (only health regen) and Spirit. A lot of classes and builds are "potion whores" and can't go without them.

Yes and the classes you didn't list do have ways to slow down attackers or protect themselves, it requires some creative thinking but it is possible. Besides I never said eliminate potions completely, I just think they shouldn't be as readily available / quick to consume as they are right now.

*rant*

You should never do this on forums, ever.

*rant* What so you expect every player to use these masteries as 1 of their 2? What about the mana pot whore elementalist... The health pot hungry melee-toons that don't use Nature, Dream or Def? Are you expecting them to be wearing -% energy cost gear or damage to health convert gear? Or probably you were thinking of giving them 100% CtaP & CtDA gear? As if the game, didn't have enough builds that were GEAR reliant, now you just made it more so... This is probably one of the worst ideas, I've ever heard in an attempt to increase the difficulty of the game. *end of rant* - - this is certainly the reason why I never, play no-potions challenge in single player since it's like I'm pre-determined to use one of these 4 masteries. And 1 thing I hate the most is being told what to do, instead of what I want to do.

So what combination do you use then? Clearly I've upset you but I'm sick of seeing health and energy potions every 3rd or 4th kill, and if it's as bad as you say later on then this means the proposed ideas need not be applied as heavily, or at all to those end game potions.

Had you waited another hour before your reply I would have got in a comment ahead of you and maybe you wouldn't have responded with such aggression.

Update 2 will only be viable in multiplayer... you wreck certain pet builds that rely on the fast recharge of the heals to heal their pets, who are tanking for their a**es in Single Player. Mid-level Soothsayer's Rant (in xmax/uber): *rant* "Wth... my wolves are dead... my Lich is barely alive tanking Yaoguai/Barmanu/Typhon (x3), I need to heal him... ****it, I need to heal him again...wtf!!! 30 seconds, who the hell thought of this s***... that's it, I quit my profession!" *end of rant*

My turn to use some bold font; your arguments are based on a mod that multiplies the number of bosses and monsters by x amount. My arguments are based on the vanilla game of Immortal Throne

If you're against my ideas at least have the decency to use the vanilla game in your arguments, I'm not playing with any mods except skins on my female character. (texture changes only).

[ASYLUM101]

If you want the game to be harder, try playing on a mod that increases the number of monsters before going through and modding all the health potions. Xmax, Achilles, or Uber if you're insane. You'll see that health potions while still are needed much more.

Vanilla TQ is impossible to play in comparison, it's hardly the same game in terms of difficulty.

[jiaco]

Munderbunny's 6 to 11 second useDelayTime increase also makes it much more challenging. (but 30 sec would be too much).

I really like the idea of an animation for potions, so you would be hesitant to drink one while in combat. But there is only a sound field in the dbr, and I have no idea how you could add an animation...

you could change the sound to be something absurdly horrible, then you would not want to drink them anymore!

[ASYLUM101]

you could change the sound to be something absurdly horrible, then you would not want to drink them anymore!

LOL.

What if you changed the health pot effect to ... eh... crap you're right. There's gotta be a way...

[Winter Dragon]

Munderbunny's 6 to 11 second useDelayTime increase also makes it much more challenging. (but 30 sec would be too much).

Well, 30 was an arbitrary number and I should have probably used a lesser number like 12 or 18, but meh. Can't help that now.

I'm against using mods that multiply monsters because that not only multiplies xp, but also the chance for relics, rare and epic loot and other things to drop. I'd give them a go once I finish legendary though, they sound immensely challenging according to the above rant but I'm only up to Orient on normal right now. I'll look for Munderbunny's mod right away though, ta for the mention.

[jiaco]

Actually, it is the Occult mod, and you will find it has its own section on this forum, but it is kinda sponsored by google (terminally in beta) but dont let that stop you. I have been playing the beta for a while now, is gmail still in beta? I dunno.

[gasconron]

Yes and the classes you didn't list do have ways to slow down attackers or protect themselves, it requires some creative thinking but it is possible. Besides I never said eliminate potions completely, I just think they shouldn't be as readily available / quick to consume as they are right now.

------

*rant*
You should never do this on forums, ever.

----

My turn to use some bold font; your arguments are based on a mod that multiplies the number of bosses and monsters by x amount. My arguments are based on the vanilla game of Immortal Throne

If you're against my ideas at least have the decency to use the vanilla game in your arguments, I'm not playing with any mods except skins on my female character. (texture changes only).

1.) Slow/Sleep/Stun/Confuse - can only help you to an extent in higher difficulties with higher difficulty/mob increase mods. w/o a ready source of healing and a screen full of mobs rushing your way, you are as good as dead. Unless you are a fan of 100% recharge.

2.) hmmm... i heard that *flame* was more commonly used to express dislike for someone's opinion or comment, but I originally opted for the more polite *rant*... Would you like me to edit my previous post to "*flame*...blah, blah, blah... *end of flame*" instead?

3.) This is the Balance PATCH section of the forums, it is probably one of the most awaited fix patches for TQ:IT, whose purpose is to nerf those over powered items and skills, and/or boost under-powered seldom used items, etc; I, for one, am looking forward to it. Last time I checked, when you PATCH YOUR GAME, IT DOES NOT ******* MATTER WHETHER YOU PLAY VANILLA TQ OR CUSTOM GAMES, SUCH AS XMAX OR UBER. EVERYTHING IS AFFECTED BY CHANGES MADE TO IT BY THE PATCH... So, yeah, it does matter, a lot to me and to the big majority of the TQ forums community, who graduated from Vanilla TQ years ago, and have been using higher difficulty mods ever since.

Closely looking back at your Option 1, and comparing TQ to most RPG games/Hack-n-Slash RPG Hybrid games.
1. From what I remember, almost all of those games had merchants that sold Potions.
2. And most, if not all, of them had monsters that would occassionally drop potions.
3. Sacred was the game that followed your "sell w/ a limit per day" option. - - this might actually be viable.
4. And as for limiting the number of pots a char can carry around, the only reason why it is more convenient to not have this restriction is because of the hassle of TP'ing to town and buying more pots. It doesn't make the game more difficult, just more inconvenient.

If you hate using pots so much, then put it in your personal playstyle by limiting yourself to what you really need. Pots are there for Merchants to sell, so people who need them at certain situations, can get hold of them when they need it most. The fact that you even suggested this ludicrous suggestion w/o understanding how it will affect other people, who want to use this patch, would get affected byt it. I personally, hate thoughtless actions and comments that disregard their possible effect on other people.