Potions (specifically energy)

[Yinmaren]

This post is actually going to be fairly short because it's about 10:00PM right now and I've got some stuff to do. It's not going to go over what I said it was in the previous post.

The first thing that needs to be done is to find averages of everything. Average total mana, average cast speed (we do not need to balance the game based on maximum cast speed, reaching the max should give a large bonus), and what the average cost for a spell is all at an average level.

At some point we have to accept that our characters are godly unkillable murder machines and that attempting to balance the game around them is counter-productive to what balance in an action-rpg is all about.

That should be fairly easy. We don't need to examine each and every spell, just the most used spells.

We should record the average total mana and cast speed of a hybrid as well.

Once we have this data, we can simply take the information about potions in the art manager and compare them to what exists. Then we can truly assess if the problem does indeed dwell in the realm of mana potions.

After that, the change could be as simple as increasing the re-use time of energy potions by X amount of time based around average mana consumption at Y level, going through each type of mana potion and giving them different reuse times based on mana given to the ratio of mana spent per second, or making it so mana potions can only be used once a minute so they are used in emergencies.

One flaw with the out of combat potions is that it negates a large part of passive mana and health regeneration. While they are constantly on, you get the most benefit of them while you are not in combat. Loosely restricting these potions to out of combat only might make certain energy related things matter more, but they'll make others matter less and that is not a good solution.

The best solution would be the Diablo 2 belt method mixed with the TQ quantity method coupled with time restrictions based on the type of potion you used. You could have more in-combat oriented potions that give smaller bonuses but give smaller reuse bonuses and larger potions that are primarily used out of combat or in emergencies which have larger reuse penalties but that doesn't seem to be a realistic solution.

[Munderbunny]

I think it's fairly well understood what constitutes mana usage. And finding a potion refresh rate that accommodates average skill usage still makes energy related skills and equipment useless beyond "average" usage.

And, while I know it was just an example, but 5000 mana is funny; I've never had more than around 2k mana on my pure casting characters through level 65 (not even my ternion diviner). I, like most people who play pure casters, put all my points into intelligence because I don't need points in mana ever thanks to the fact that mana potions give me an unlimited amount of mana.

Now, certainly reducing the amount of mana a potion gives and/or increasing the cooldown are options, but they're not exactly new proposals. And, if I take the exemplary math out of your post, that's essentially what you're proposing, right?

What I would like to see is the effectiveness of energy potions reduced to such a degree that a player cannot use them in place of energy regeneration items and skills; that a player who invests in these options will have better access to energy during combat than a player who doesn't. This isn't so much fixing an existing problem as it is adding energy regen as an element in the game, where it isn't now.

[Munderbunny]

I'd like to add that there are an extreme number of variables, so much so that the potential combinations are in excess of reasonable calculation. I think it's far better to use player's experience with the game to find better levels. It's the only measure that can include everything, and doesn't take dozens of people working on something the size of the human genome project.

[yerkyerk]

What I would like to see is the effectiveness of energy potions reduced to such a degree that a player cannot use them in place of energy regeneration items and skills; that a player who invests in these options will have better access to energy during combat than a player who doesn't. This isn't so much fixing an existing problem as it is adding energy regen as an element in the game, where it isn't now.

This is what I would like to see also.
Here's another idea;
why not give the energy potions a base and a +%energy regen that both interact with the hero's energy regeneration?

Say, a small potion gives
+6 energy regen for 6 seconds
+150% energy regen for 6 seconds
Which results in 6x2.5 = 15 energy regen per second for 6 seconds

The hero has a base mana regen of
+ 2.21 energy regen (without %energy regen multipliers)
+200% energy regen
Which results in 2.21x3 = 6.61 energy regen

During 6 seconds, the hero will get
+8.21 (6+2.21)
+350% energy regen
Which results in 8.21x4.5 =
36.945 energy regen per second (for 6 seconds, than it reverts back to 6.61)

This would certainly reward players for equipping energy regen and/or %energy regen potions. The numbers will have to be thoroughly tested - and make sure that heroes who forfeit any e-regen equipment will not have enough energy, while those who have plenty e-regen will have no problems.

On top of that, we would probably want to increase the potion cooldown time.
(This system may or may not be useful for health pots - I think not, though I also think we should currently only focus on energy atm).

[Yinmaren]

And, while I know it was just an example, but 5000 mana is funny; I've never had more than around 2k mana on my pure casting characters through level 65 (not even my ternion diviner). I, like most people who play pure casters, put all my points into intelligence because I don't need points in mana ever thanks to the fact that mana potions give me an unlimited amount of mana.

Do you mean base mana or with items? I was referring to with items, specifically the %total mana items but without items that gave -%mana cost or %chance for -%mana cost to eliminate any sort of randomness.

25 seconds seems about right for my Soothsayer and Druid. I think both had about 5k mana at 50, give or take.

Now, certainly reducing the amount of mana a potion gives and/or increasing the cooldown are options, but they're not exactly new proposals. And, if I take the exemplary math out of your post, that's essentially what you're proposing, right?

Yes and no. I was hoping to also post about including the older potions on the merchants and having the older potions use less of a cool down to allow for weaker in combat potions to help hybrids and those who burn through mana much more quickly than those who do not.

My experience with stuff like this is that the more grandiose the change, the more problems that pop up that, at first, don't make sense but later become a huge mess that becomes harder to clean up than what the original problem was. What a run on sentence.

It's also been my experience that if people can actually see, in numbers, what a change means they're more acceptant to the fact even if it is worse. For example, if I say I lowered the damage that Open Wound does by 2 per second, it seems much larger than saying I lowered the damage of Open Wound by 6 despite being the same thing.

What I would like to see is the effectiveness of energy potions reduced to such a degree that a player cannot use them in place of energy regeneration items and skills; that a player who invests in these options will have better access to energy during combat than a player who doesn't. This isn't so much fixing an existing problem as it is adding energy regen as an element in the game, where it isn't now.

This is something I was going to say in one of my posts yesterday but it came off really snarky and mean but it wasn't exactly this.

I was hoping to have some of the more useless skills or one point wonders made a bit better. One example is Tranquility of Water. Despite it looking to be really good, it's a stinker. A % chance to have 50% off of your mana cost is... pretty bad. Even with 10 points in to it (I imagine +4 is the max for it) it's not that great because of how it functions.

One thing you said, though, seems really important to what I'm getting at:

...that a player who invests in these options will have better access to energy during combat than a player who doesn't.

That's it. If you invest enough points in to Warmth as a Sorc in D2, you rarely ran out of mana. The idea shouldn't be "Energy is a vital resource so you should have a limited amount." The idea should be "Energy is a vital resource so developing your character around it should be preferred over building your character around potions."

To make potions less attractive is one thing. To assume that this would make the other options more attractive by default I feel is a bit misguided. Tranquility of Water is still going to be a one point wonder for me. We should want to make potions less attractive while making the other options more attractive.

Because a turd is a turd no matter how hard you polish it up.

[Yinmaren]

The idea!

I like that a lot. Have mana regen be the more important of the energy saving stuffs and have that act as a basis towards how good potions are for each player.

In fact, I really like that idea a lot.

Since energy acts a bit differently depending on what kind of character you are, having it adapt to your play style and item choice seems to fit the game perfectly.

I think something like this could easily be balanced so that it keeps the action flowing while adding a bit more strategy and thrill to the game without making the game impossible on boss fights.

[regibbons]

Bearing in mind that the furthest I've ever gotten is the beginning of Act II, I do have an opinion. I NEVER use energy pots. Not because I'm on some hardcore mode or anything, I just rarely ever cast spells, even on my pyromancer. I have a warfare/nature (just use the heal spell), a rouge/defense (bring up the enchantments and go click mobs), a hunter and a dreamer that I don't think ever cast anything, and several pyromancers. The pyromancers cast their enchantments, drop a core dweller, then attack with the staff. I don't even put points in the three jets and lob an orb spells. This may change in later Acts/difficulties, but for now I just sell whatever pots I come across. And to an extent I don't even know why I do that, because I've never seen anything in a shop better than what I find killing.

**EDIT**

This may be another thing I haven't gotten to yet, but I know spells have cooldown timers on them. With my energy regen already ~10 at level 8 I regen nearly as fast as I cast anyway

[riffraff14]

a bit off-topic:

Gold can be used to buy stuff in shops. There will be times when you find something in a shop that's worth buying. This is most common when shopping for jewelry late in the game. Jewelry at this level is usually around 1-3 million, where weapons can be 80m+.

Gold is also used to remove charms/relics from items. Depending on the item this can cost 80m+ gold.

But usually you will have some kind of energy draining skills no matter what masteriess you use. Even a archtype warrior like a conqueror (warfare/defense) will use energy over time by using onslaught. Also there are skills that, when active, will "reserve" part of your energy pool. Eventually you will be drinking lots of potions.

[Kuaera]

I have looked into the game files some and I think I understand how we can alter energy potions. Currently, for both health and energy potions, there is a static amount restored plus a percentage of your maximum; however, for health potions, it seems there is an internal game mechanic for restoring a certain amount of the potion over time [I do not know how much specifically]. For energy potions, there is no such thing.

We are not out of luck, however.

The template files which we all use are simply that: templates. They group together various variables and import other templates so the developer can more easily alter an item. If we were to alter the potion template, we could sidestep this game mechanic and make energy potions restore their full value over a course of time, with the only direct restoration being a percentage of max. This would encourage a player to have better regeneration and a higher energy reserve.

Of course, this is all assuming I have followed the path of the template files correctly and did not misinterpret existing game mechanics. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Munderbunny]

You'd have to change the class, not the template. The template is just a form. The class is defined in the game engine.