My First COup!

[Spearthrower]

Thailand has entered a state of emergency with the military apparently starting a coup!

I watched tanks rolling down the street a couple of hours ago and now I know where they were going!! :S

Hope Tae and Sadhukar are ok?

[nightnurse]

That doesn't sound too good, is this to do with the corruption by the government/ prime minister/president(?) (sorry only caught a bit here and there on the news at my girlfriends, managed to set my tv on fire recently)? Any trouble in your area? Are you from Bangkok Spearthrower? Best keep your head down...

[Spearthrower]

Im not from here but I live in Bangkok..... apparently the military has taken over - the PM is out of the country at the moment - well he was the caretaker Pm and it is all his fault imo..... he has been pressured by the people to leave and he has been dragging his heels - yes, lots of corruption involved!

[Roland]

Do take care 'mate!

Keep us posted :)

[Armada]

Grab your guns, viva la revolution!

Seriously though spearthrower - isnt that good news - if the presiden and the entire stab was corrupt? Or will this open space for a dictator? any thoughts on what may happen? :(

Edit: mentioning dictators, people always refer to it as a BAD thing. Look here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator

Many dictators have been good for nations. Rome for example - trade, wealth, growth , construction building - almost ALL aspects of their society was much better and effective under caesars leadership. As long as a wise good and strong man rules its much better then a bunch of idiots arguing. He was obsessed with power thats true, but he loved his people and country and they loved him. I would rather have a dictator/emperor then our damned democracy in Norway were i live. Much more efficent. All our politicians is doing is arguing and nothing gets done!

[Tanatos]

Farewell Spear.
:P

[Spearthrower]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5361008.stm

Some more news...... Thaksin sacks the highest General... he turns round and calls a coup. Half the army is appointed by Thaksin.... so what happens next? :S

[Spearthrower]

This has happened a few times before..... but Thaksin has caused such problems I am not sure where this is going.

It is good for Thailand - in my opinion - to lose this guy who's been bleeding them dry for years..... but it's probably just changing one corrupt bod for another.

[nightnurse]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1876216,00.html


'Thailand's army-run television suspended broadcasts and began playing songs praising King Bhumibol Adulyadej, the country's revered monarch'

Now Spearthrower, I hope you took time out from TQ to sing along.

[nightnurse]

but it's probably just changing one corrupt bod for another.

Yeh, that's right, it doesn't matter who you vote for, the Government always gets in.

[Spearthrower]

I'd love to hear from Tae and Sadhukar and any other thais or people living in Thailand.

I will be happy to explain the situation from my opinions but I dont want to upset anyone :)

[Spearthrower]

Coups are boring.... I'm going to bed! ;)

[Armada]

Coups are boring.... I'm going to bed! ;)

lol! goodnight :) Maybe you should do a coup yourself? :happy:

[Spearthrower]

On another forum, someone asked me to explain what the hell was going on - whether the military or Thaksin was the "Good Guy" - this is what I wrote.....

****
From a lot of people's perspective, the military in this case are the good guys. The reason being that many see Thaksin as a corrupt old sheister that has been pocketing money straight out of Thailand's pocket for years.

Now, unfortunately, many people in the North and East, very poor and generally uneducated people support him because he tends to go to those places and throw money around - again, no one is sure if he is giving his personal money or the state's money.... but it is clearly a case of constant vote buying.

The more affluent and educated centres are so opposed to him that there have been mass rallies against him this year.

It got so bad that he called a general election. What he did was against the Thai constitution because he didnt give enough time for opposition parties to plan their campaign. So ALL opposition parties refused to take part in the election so Thaksin's party won - but really only just - they got the barest minimum to qualify to rule.... in fact, something like 14 seats went unfilled due to not enough votes even though they were uncontested.

This led to further mass rallies that brought Bangkok to its knees and brought the Election Council under the spotlight. Seemingly, they were being a little to favouritist with Thaksin's party so they were disolved.

Thaksin eventually admitted defeat and promised to step down. His government became a caretaker government and he went off for a month trip round the world meeting the premieres of various countries (blatant propaganda to impress Thai's with his western contacts).

With the election coming up in October, suddenly Thaksin has said that he will be running as the leader of his party again. This has thrown the whole thing into confusion and again the opposition are saying that they find this unacceptable (there are lots of elements of corruption and tax evasion on Thaksin's part that I havent gone into here). Really it is absurd that he will not relinquish his grasp on the reins of power even if it bring his country to its knees.

Finally, 2 weeks ago Thaksin accused General Sonthi (um big warchief) of attempting an asassination plot. Sonthi's response was "If I wanted to kill Thaksin, he'd be dead!".

Yesterday, Thaksin sacked Sonthi in a phone call from New York. Sonthi turned round and brought the army out to claim Bangkok and thereby Thailand. He is promising that the election will go ahead in October and I believe it - the military know that they cannot rule here anymore - 15 years ago the military were overthrown by people rallies and it would happen again.

Democracy here is a tiny, fragile thing that people treasure vehemently. The quiet, gentle Thai people would rise up against any dictator - like they started to against Thaksin.

So, now we are left with a temporary military junta.... but how can an election go ahead if they dont let Thaksin's party run? It seems like we are at a stand off.

The people of Bangkok seem to mostly support and are happy with this proceeding - believe it or not! Check out Thai comments on BBC if you dont believe me..... many of my friends are all but dancing in the street (except its martial law so they'd be shot!! :D )

Other than that, it's been a peaceful coup.

Hope that describes the situation - bear in mind it is from my anti-Thaksin perspective too! ;)



Armada - I did! In my sleep I took over the Galaxy! I now own you.... cup of coffee please... and make it snappy! :D

[Armada]

Armada - I did! In my sleep I took over the Galaxy! I now own you.... cup of coffee please... and make it snappy! :D

ok, omw! bought a ticket to thailand! :)

I KNEW the general/army were the good guys, its julius Caesar taking Rome - all over again! (just the asian version ^^ )

[Spearthrower]

Ooh I just saw Roland on that other forum! :D

He got to read my write-up twice!! :)

Armada.... 3 sugars please... this Galactic Lord likes it sweet! :P

[Opieo]

now if only the americans could stand up to their corrupt rulers
they impeached clinton for his private life
and they havent done anything to bush even though he disregards the freakin geneva convention

note, this is just a minor rant along similar lines, and not intended to be a thread hijack

[Spearthrower]

Hijack away - I'd love to see more Americans saying that kind of thing! :)

[MadTexan]

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

If I were to say that to the wrong people and too close to the White House right now, I'm sure I would be 'detained' for an extended period.

[Opieo]

heh, me too
for the most part ive disappeared from these forums, i check far less often now from what i used to
my interest in SP TQ has waned to very little
playing with friends on LAN though is super sweet still
so i check forums less

as for the highjack, i bet i could start a new very read thread on this subject
i just dont see how people still like bush
are they fanatical or something?
its been proven that hes lied to us over and over and over
he has used the terrorist alert thing falsely when there are no threats just to cover up other things

what ever happened to that one guy who was a lobbyist who had proof of a lot of things that was going to testify against the corruption of congress?
he disappeared
of course he did, they dont want people to know the truth
they probably had him killed by now for all we know

to top it all off, bush is trying to pass laws with stipulations that he doesnt even have to follow those new laws, WTF is up with that, seriously
not to mention he is blatantly disregardnig the geneva convention and get it changed to suit his own agenda

if i could have one wish, it would be to give bush a conscience
oh man that would kill him because he would feel so bad for the hole he has put america in and all the soldiers that have died because he wants to look good (which, last i heard, he STILL has the lowest presidential approval rating EVER, which is aside from Licoln, since there was that whole cival war thing, actually, i think lincoln still had a higher rating, about 50% =P)

if i really disappear now and they come and get me from whatever law they're breaking to abduct me
ill miss you guys
and i've then become a martyr nobody will ever know about
ill probably be falsely labeled as a terrorist or something

to be honest im a slight bit scared of posting this just because they are breaking every law under the sun and could abduct me for no real cause

[Armada]

Bill Clinton was a great President, he did more for the country than bush will ever do. I think that if clinton was honest from the FIRST second abot the sex scandal - and told the people the truth instead of lying - the people would support him and maybe even win more votes. That George W. Bush is allowed precidency over anything bigger than a book club is insanity. He cant even speak his own language. I know this sounds like a "OMG CONSPIRACY!" line but seriously, there are more powerfull men behind bush in the shadows who really control the country. Bush is just the scape goat in the end. It would be naive to think that moron is the one with the real power.

k this got off topic hehe , back on!

In newspaper today i saw that people are giving roses, water etc and supporting the soldiers in Thailand. This is good :) The Noble Genearal VS The corrupt minister 1-0

[MadTexan]

Bush still finds some favor because no matter how much he has done wrong to date, there are still plenty of radical extremists and/or terrorists howling for the blood of any Westerner they see and since Bush has made them his stated target (whether true or false) he will have supporters.

[Opieo]

very good point MaxTexan
that is very true
my old roommate was one of those extremists
bush could probably shoot his father, and he would still follow
that goes for any republican in a lot of the extremists cases

i also agree that there are definitely more powerful people behind the president in bush's case
he just can't be smart enough to do all this alone
i believe he can be dumb enough to go through with it all though

and bush is in part the cause of the terrorists
it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad if bush wasn't making it such a big deal
he keeps saying how we are on a crusade against them, well
go figure a lot of people in the middle east see this as a threat so they're kind of pissed
if bush would cool it, they would too to an extent
we would still have the actual terrorists trying to pull **** off, but it would be much more relaxed with regards to the non-terrorist middle easterners (which is pretty much all)

[Spearthrower]

I cant even begin to summarise my feelings on this - I've been following it all for years and it clearly is the most corrupt thing to have ever happened to a "free" country.

Even in the states.... how do a father and son become President? It's got to be millions to one. The simple fact is that there are, as mentioned, very powerful forces (for evil) behind them. The axis of evil really lies with what was once the good guys.... power corrupts.

The saddest thing is that Bush and co have so twisted the truth to display it to the American public that they have honest, gentle, kind people spewing the same lies in rabid fashion.

Look at the story today - President of Pakistan says that he was told that unless Pakistan supported the US in afghanistan, they would be "bombed into the stone age"... wtf kind of force for good is the US at the moment?

Everything that has happened has been to support a few powerful men achieve ways in which their vast billions can be further increased. These men would destroy the world for the price of lining their pockets.

I have said it before and I will say it again - the US has a long and noble tradition of asassinating presidents and the time could not be riper. It wouldn't destroy the overall dark lord - but it might cut back his power. And who is the puppet master anyway? You can see the evil bastards all around the Bush team - look in their eyes, there are some really evil men and women there.... but I doubt we really know the face of the one who's behind it all.

As for fearing free speech!

Never!

More thinking Americans need to speak out and be damned with the consequences.

Your entire constitution demands that you do something about this and stop letting this government pervert your society.

The list of crimes commited by the incumbent authorites stretches way beyond the bounds of a single thread. Someone has to stop them soon though or I dont see the US ever pulling out of a downward spiral of lessening morals, liberties and truth.

[Sandwich Maker]

Wow, you are an a--hole! Your country just goes through a coup and you go bad mouth the US? When has America ever assassinated a President? More free speech? There are a million conservative and liberal outlets for anyone to speak their mind, and maybe if you pulled your head out of your *** you might just see that! Why do people who lived in f-ck-d up countries always start complaining about the US? Instead of b-tch-ng about the US do something to actually help out your own country.

[Sandwich Maker]

what ever happened to that one guy who was a lobbyist who had proof of a lot of things that was going to testify against the corruption of congress?
he disappeared
of course he did, they dont want people to know the truth
they probably had him killed by now for all we know
to be honest im a slight bit scared of posting this just because they are breaking every law under the sun and could abduct me for no real cause

Paranoid! lol


if i could have one wish, it would be to give bush a conscience
oh man that would kill him because he would feel so bad for the hole he has put america in and all the soldiers that have died because he wants to look good

To put the current war in perspective 58,000 US servicemen died in Vietnam and only 2,682 have died in the Iraq war. We lost Vietnam but even though it seems bad in Iraq now democracy will eventually prevail.

[Sandwich Maker]

Your entire constitution demands that you do something about this and stop letting this government pervert your society.

We do something about this every 2 years - it's called an election! We have a midterm election coming up and the Democrats will probably retake the Congress.
Let our government pervert our society? At least we don't need tanks and soldiers to force a change in our government!

[Spearthrower]

Wow, you are an a--hole! Your country just goes through a coup and you go bad mouth the US? When has America ever assassinated a President? More free speech? There are a million conservative and liberal outlets for anyone to speak their mind, and maybe if you pulled your head out of your *** you might just see that! Why do people who lived in f-ck-d up countries always start complaining about the US? Instead of b-tch-ng about the US do something to actually help out your own country.

Well done - you totally failed to read anything didnt you.... Typical rabid response.

*looks at avatar* Hmm yes I guess I really do look thai dont i? *boggle* Ahh I know, you are one of those Americans with his head right up his *** :D That's why you dont know what Thais look like... Welcome to the World! It's a big old place man.

I am not Thai. It is not my country.

So long and thanks for all the fish.


*and I promise to stop being sarcastic but someone who uses derogatory name calling to "make their point" isn't worth a wank in discussion - very typical rabid right response from what I have seen on boards*



EDIT: and I cant resist: I didnt "bad mouth" the US - patriotism really blinds doesnt it - I havent said a single word against the US.... if anything I have said that it needs help due to having such a fricking awful government taking it down the wrong path. You seem comfortable in switching between the individual and the society whenever it supports your point. Liberal outlets in America have been bombarded with abuse, blatantly victimised and denounced as terrorist loving - great free speech model there. F'd up countries? I take it that is your description of the World outside of the U S of A? Would you mind elucidating on exactly what a f'd up country is.... I know which country I would use as an example. I've given up on my country - it rolled over and died trying to follow US foreign policy. Now, i am citizen of the world and I tells it like I sees it. If you dont like it, that's fine but call me names to try to detract from my point and I will laugh at your arrogance and blindness. You are one of those skipping his way to hell - mindless support for authorities is what's driving all of this extremism be it Western or Eastern.

[MadTexan]

Look at the story today - President of Pakistan says that he was told that unless Pakistan supported the US in afghanistan, they would be "bombed into the stone age"... wtf kind of force for good is the US at the moment?

OK, I'm no Bush fan and I wouldn't put anything past his administration, but just because one world leader says that someone said something does not make it true.

Want a good example of why this must apply? Bush said Iraq had WMDs, and it turns out they didn't.

We can't know exactly why the Pakistani President aired that just now, but keep this in mind--no one in any government system does anything like this without there being a very specific reason for it.

It could be that he decided to make that accusation to gain back some favor with the more radical elements in his country, by slamming Bush, after being labelled as a US puppet for so long.

[Spearthrower]

You may well be right MadTexan... although you have to accept that it is just one out of countless examples I could have used to show the US administration throwing their weight around like a bully. What happens with bullies is that one day all the little kids gang up and give their shins a damn good kicking. It happened a lot with Iraq with the Bush gang throwing their weight around with their allies - anyone not towing the line was marginalised or outright demonised (see France and "Freedom Fries"). It's happening again now.... it's the wording I can't stand... this whole "if you aren't with us then you are clearly supporting terrorism" implied in every request that the Bush admin make to the world (not just in UN affairs like Iran but also in FTA's and local disputes).

I personally think that the American people are good people as a whole and yet they are allowing their administration to take them down a path that sets them into conflict with a lot of the rest of the world. Arabic countries from Malaysia to Morocco are starting to anger over the demonisation of Islam. Long long term allies of the US are breaking away and not wanting to be seen towing such an extremist and geo-politically insensitive line.

Something has to break soon or America is going to find itself in a world gone mad, a world practically at war with it. And this, I lay at the feet of Bush and Cronies.... NOT (for those who have problems reading between the lines *cough sandwich cough maker*) NOT the American people. I don't have a racist bone in my body - nationality is a random squiggle on a piece of paper as far as I am concerned.... but I am perfectly within my rights to ascribe the ills I see to the antagonists. Just because someone (above) calls me an a-hole and wishes to stamp down on my right to express my not ill-educated opinions, doesn't mean I am obliged to - this new culture of bowing to the President because it would be unpatriotic not to is just mind control..... and I am happy to read more Americans like MadTexan and Opeio express opinions that are not merely a repetition of the capo.

For anyone else who wants to criticise my opinions - I wholly welcome it - please feel more than free to do so, but don't use personal criticisms of my character (you dont know me). Speak to me nice and I will speak to you nice, I promise.... speak to me rudely and I shall cast witty riposte aspersions on your intellect, your parenthood and your choice of toothpaste. Remember - I am talking about a government, not a religion here! :S

[MadTexan]

I personally think that the American people are good people as a whole and yet they are allowing their administration to take them down a path that sets them into conflict with a lot of the rest of the world.

Short of a violent civil war, what can the average American do to change the path the current administration is taking? That's right, nothing that would have the slightest effect on the current situation.

[Spearthrower]

Short of a violent civil war, what can the average American do to change the path the current administration is taking? That's right, nothing that would have the slightest effect on the current situation.


Rallies in other democratic countries have led to the ouster of corrupt regimes. Tanks and guns are the last resort.

[MadTexan]

Rallies in other democratic countries have led to the ouster of corrupt regimes. Tanks and guns are the last resort.

Sure, but what you are failing to consider is the same thing that so many of my European colleagues always overlook--the US is not simply 1 country, but in reality a collection of 50 countries under a central government.

For perspective on this, please note that my home state of Texas is as large as most of Western Europe combined. Even trying to compare Austria (my current location) to Texas is flawed, since the population of the Dallas-Ft. Worth metropolis exceeds the entire population of Austria.

So, considering you have 50 'countries' that make up the US proper, you simply can't consider the demonstrations held in smaller countries as a viable means of reform since there are far too many sets of wants and needs involved and far too many will not be complimentary.

[Spearthrower]

Sure, but what you are failing to consider is the same thing that so many of my European colleagues always overlook--the US is not simply 1 country, but in reality a collection of 50 countries under a central government.

For perspective on this, please note that my home state of Texas is as large as most of Western Europe combined. Even trying to compare Austria (my current location) to Texas is flawed, since the population of the Dallas-Ft. Worth metropolis exceeds the entire population of Austria.

So, considering you have 50 'countries' that make up the US proper, you simply can't consider the demonstrations held in smaller countries as a viable means of reform since there are far too many sets of wants and needs involved and far too many will not be complimentary.


Are you then saying that the American people do not have any influence over the politics of their country beyond elections? Or is it that only fiscally lobbying people in power that works?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but rallies pushing any state towards opposition would surely have a very strong effect on the nation as a whole. All those 50 countries adhere to very similar principles even if they have some arbitrage with setting laws. Seeing another state come out and rally strongly would lead other states to do so.... how many would be needed before it became an issue? Not many would be my guess, even if they were the smaller ones.

[MadTexan]

Are you then saying that the American people do not have any influence over the politics of their country beyond elections? Or is it that only fiscally lobbying people in power that works?

What I am saying is that even at a personal level, what I want will not be the same as what you want. Scale that up to city, county, state and federal levels and it should be clear that there will simply never be enough common cause in the US that a stable, lasting demonstration could influence those in power. For a good example of a failed attempt of this sort, see the Million Man March.


Forgive me if I am wrong, but rallies pushing any state towards opposition would surely have a very strong effect on the nation as a whole.

Again, you are thinking on the wrong scale. A rally in Oklahoma would have zero impact on the political scene in Texas, since the economies of the 2 states are based on vastly different resources, which in turn means that the residents have far fewer common concerns for their daily lives.

Notice I now mention daily lives? That's what gets people out in the streets--impact their daily lives in a negative way and you get action. Right now, nothing about the current US administration is having a severe enough impact to prompt them to action.


All those 50 countries adhere to very similar principles even if they have some arbitrage with setting laws.

You're being too romantic now. Principles are something far too many people in the entire world, and not just in the US, have stopped abiding by.


Seeing another state come out and rally strongly would lead other states to do so.... how many would be needed before it became an issue? Not many would be my guess, even if they were the smaller ones.

See the point above about impact on daily lives.

[Sandwich Maker]

You live in your own hate-filled world Spear. You blame the US for your country's and the world's problems. LOL!. You only see what you want to see and spin everything so that it fits your own corrputed view of the world.


I cant even begin to summarise my feelings on this - I've been following it all for years and it clearly is the most corrupt thing to have ever happened to a "free" country.

Even in the states.... how do a father and son become President? It's got to be millions to one. The simple fact is that there are, as mentioned, very powerful forces (for evil) behind them. The axis of evil really lies with what was once the good guys.... power corrupts.

So if a father and son are each elected president that means the US government is corrupt? That would mean the US system has been corrupt since 1825 when John Quincy Adams was elected president (since you appartenly don't know anything about history, his father was also president). And what about Bill and Hillary Clinton? Is our system corrupt because a husband and wife both have been elected to powerful positions? Or is that ok to you because they are agaisnt Bush?
And the poor little baby doesn't like being called names. Awwwww isn't that a shame. LOL! :)

[Spearthrower]

You live in your own hate-filled world Spear. You blame the US for your country's and the world's problems. LOL!. You only see what you want to see and spin everything so that it fits your own corrputed view of the world.

And the poor little baby doesn't like being called names. Awwwww isn't that a shame. LOL! :)


You still here ignoramus? I would have thought you would be out getting reading lessons by now.

You still dont know what my country is do you? C'mon, admit it.

Hate filled? I don't have hate... I just dont do that particular emotion... if it helps you to demonise me though - please go ahead. I know it's difficult under your current brainwashing regime to allow others to express opposing opinions and it must hurt you grieviously that we are allowed to do so. Someone should be breaking down my door now and arresting me - preferably lock me up and throw away the key, dirty dissenter that I am.

Know nothing about history (how did I miss this one?) - my bachelor's degree might argue with you on that.... Oh of course, how foolish of me... when you say "History" you mean "American History"... I forget that you dont know there's more world than your little one.

What I spin? Wow, I guess you really are impressioned beyond having your own opinions arent you? Must be great to know that you are fighting for someone elses beliefs and principles - one day, you never know, they might even let you into what it is you are arguing for.

Now run along and let us adults speak, theres a good little man.

[Spearthrower]

You're being too romantic now. Principles are something far too many people in the entire world, and not just in the US, have stopped abiding by.


I'm not sure I can agree on that unless we have a different understanding of the word "principle".

There are core principles in any nation - these principles set it aside from another.... and where shared with another nation, tend to bring it together. Sometimes these principles are religious... sometimes cultural... etc.

Obviously the U.S. has a lot of shared principles with countries such as Canada and the U.K. - these are social and historical ones.... While the U.S. shares more economic and political ones with say Italy and France.

The principles of the U.S. are the things that give it common identity. I don't consider that romantic, it's from an anthropological perspective - you can determine where people are from based upon their belief systems - not that they believe x is x or y is y... but that their scope ranges from x - y.

Are you really saying that you dont think there is enough in common between states to create a feeling of national unity? If so, then yes my understanding of the USA is deeply flawed.

[Armada]

It sounds like you are defending your causes on a personal level and attacking eachother for their opinions without even considering/thinking about what they are saiying. When discussing something, no matter the subject. Try to stay neutral. Badmouthing is not needed ;)

I agree on several points youve all made. But the point of discussing something is not to win, but to try to learn and understand eachoter and Respect their opinions.

Texan and sandwich, do you truly believe that Bush is the one controlling the country and has the power. And that there are no other men and women pulling his strings from behind the scene so to say? I believe with all powerfull nations, that the REAL rulers are never in the media, exposed or public known. Because those forces, the men with REAL power. Are so smart, that they dont ever get known to the public.

[Sandwich Maker]

When have I ever said I agree with Bush's view? All I have done is criticize someone who is bad-mouthing my country. Why do people assume that if I defend my country I have to agree with my president? Spearthrower just lives in his own little world and sees whatever he wants to see. If someone criticizes him then that person must be a mind-controlled robot who can't think for themselves. He just likes to hear himself talk, boost his ego and have people think that he is extraordinary and above the rest of us. I feel sorry for him that he his filled with so much hatred and animosity.
Hate filled? I don't have hate... I just dont do that particular emotion... if it helps you to demonise me though - please go ahead. I know it's difficult under your current brainwashing regime to allow others to express opposing opinions and it must hurt you grieviously that we are allowed to do so. Know nothing about history (how did I miss this one?) - my bachelor's degree might argue with you on that.... Oh of course, how foolish of me... when you say "History" you mean "American History"... I forget that you dont know there's more world than your little one. Now run along and let us adults speak, theres a good little man.
The principles of the U.S. are the things that give it common identity. I don't consider that romantic, it's from an anthropological perspective - you can determine where people are from based upon their belief systems - not that they believe x is x or y is y... but that their scope ranges from x - y.

[Spearthrower]

Hatred and animosity are in Sandwich Makers dictionary confused with the terms free-minded and educated.

Sandwich - you came on this thead to bash - nothing else. You havent made any points whatsoever.

You also totally misread things. I havent bashed yours or anyone's country.... please quote where I did that? No really - dont make empty assertions... quote where I said "I hate the USA" - in fact I said the opposite many times in different ways.

You would make a fantastic politician - you totally ignore all the little complex arguments of others that you cant answer and respond with bile and agression to all the things you can get a handle on. You fill the gaps with direct slurs on people's characters. You pull out rabid right cliches like "hate-filled" to describe something that has nothing to do with hate.

Let me state it again - even though I have already said it many times in this thread - I know you skipped over them each time so that you could more effectively demonise me.... I dont hate your country. I dont hate the people of your country. I just can't stand your government - now tell me - is that free speech to express that or not? No skipping this one ...... is it free speech or not? Weren't Americans free to hate Saddam Hussein - did they say "We hate Iraq!"? No - that would be childish..... but detesting an evil regime is not "hate-filled".... it's expressing an opinion - one that most rational people would consider astute.

I dont need to boost my ego on a forum.... I cant "hear myself talk" on a forum.... I dont want people to think I am extraordinary - if you were part of the community here rather than a savage little troll you would know that. I am not above the rest of you. Now, I know for sure that you have just described yourself there so all I can do is feel sorry for you.... I wont bother responding with anymore derision because it is sad to see.

Putting you down is like shooting fish in a barrel - fun for the first time and then boring and self-demeaning thereafter.



Back to the topic at hand.

[Spearthrower]

It sounds like you are defending your causes on a personal level and attacking eachother for their opinions without even considering/thinking about what they are saiying. When discussing something, no matter the subject. Try to stay neutral. Badmouthing is not needed ;)

I agree on several points youve all made. But the point of discussing something is not to win, but to try to learn and understand eachoter and Respect their opinions.


I thoroughly agree with you, as I am pretty sure you know. I have but responded to someone who felt the need to personally attack me for something that they thought I did... even when I didnt. I am happy to respond to anyone who wants to use logic and opinions to discuss but starting name-calling as a means of supporting your opinion or diminishing someone else's can never lead to discussion, only flames.

I shall cease to "discuss" with the Sandwich anymore Armada.... please feel free to get back to the topic at hand with me as there have been some interesting developments. The Thai King has come out and supported the coup giving it all the moral and spiritual backing it needs for the Thai people. Today I saw some pro-Thaksin (ex-PM) supporters going out to demonstrate - currently Thailand is under martial law and therefore they are risking their lives to do so!! :knockout:

[Sandwich Maker]

I didn't come here to bash, I came here to criticize someone who was criticizing my country. It's good for people to hear more than one side of an argument. Our government is elected by the people - you bash that government you also bash the people that voted for it. When you call the freest, kindest and most giving country and government in the world corrupt I feel extremely compelled to set the record straight.

[Spearthrower]

I didn't come here to bash, I came here to criticize someone who was criticizing my country.

Fair enough but you started with the words "You a**hole" which is way more extreme than my words were. If you had expressed your points, I guarantee you I would have listened to them.


It's good for people to hear more than one side of an argument.

I totally 100% agree with you.


Our government is elected by the people - you bash that government you also bash the people that voted for it.

No. That is simply not true. Voting for someone initially doesnt behest you with the responsibility for their future actions. If people had known what would occur then they may have chosen differently - they may not. Criticising a government is well within the realms of free speech - places like Communist China and Nazi Germany stopped their people from criticising their government - they stamped out freedom of expression and the right to challenge authority. I do not and will not ever agree that one must support the government to support the people. To go back to the original point in this thread - I always hated Thaksin - he is a money grabbing little bastard.... that doesnt mean I hate the Thai people.... but they voted for him in the great majority... I think they were delusioned, believing something false - that doesnt constitute hating them.... I simply am incapable of hating a nation.


When you call the freest, kindest and most giving country and government in the world corrupt I feel extremely compelled to set the record straight.

Obviously that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Again I would point out to you that I am not criticising your people who clearly are very generous in giving aid from their personal pockets - I am talking about a government that has acted totally in its own interests, fuelling what could become a generation long war for the sake of their own pockets. Freedom is something that the USA *is* losing and has been for a few years. By Freedom I mean personal liberty and plenty of your presidents have warned about losing liberty in the face of security pressures.

Speak to me with logic and I assure you I will answer you in kind. I reiterate... I am totally incapable of hating an entire people.

[Opieo]

Aight, sorry I was away for awhile guys =P

Sandwich, the initial mud throwing you did there against Spear did seem a bit spiteful and did make you look less intelligent. Your more recent posts though seem much more civilized, and are looked upon better imo.

I agree we are losing our freedoms.
As for America being a generous country, its people are I would agree.
Its government, hell no.
We just went and stomped out a whole country because they didn't do what we wanted them to.
And just in case any of you don't remember (since they used the terror alert to cover it up when the news came out), Bush claimed that the Al Qaeda (spelling?) had links to the Iraq government, which they obviously don't.
He also claimed at another point the WMD, which was also obviously wrong.
And now he is doing the same thing to Iran.

If we think back when, it was US (us, not the US, but in this case the same thing since I am from the US and that is what I mean when I say us, whew) that gave Iraq and Saddam his initial power to fight Iran back when?

He was STILL keeping Iran and other middle eastern countries in check, or at least that is what I have been able to pick out of foreign news and such over the past few years, since when reading on the middle east, I try not to read only US news, since it is obviously biased most the time.

As for I don't remember who mentioned that we've lost very few men in Iraq and lost over 50K in Vietnam.
Here is my point in that topic that I am probably more adement about it since one of those lost in Iraq was my friend who I was friends with since middle school.
WE SHOULD FUC*** BE THERE!!!!!
It is not our goddamn business.
Seriously, who the hell said, "Hey, US, go be world police and squash anyone you want who you think is doing bad"
That goes for Vietnam too, and Korea before it.
We had no real right to be there except to force our beliefs down their throats, which is you know, not a real right to be there.
Sure they showed some civilians from those countries each time who liked it and wanted democracy, but I can guarentee you there were a lot who didn't want it, that the new peoples / those in power didn't show because it wouldn't have made them look as good.

[Opieo]

Just to continue since that was getting too big::::

As for what Spear (or was it Texan, sorry I do not recall at the moment, but it was one of you) said about the US losing allies, I can see that from here even with the way the US is doing what it is, we are losing our allies.
Hell, a lot of republicans themselves are distancing themselves from Bush because they believe it will hinder their election chances.
So even amongst the corrupt (imo, if you = politician, you = corrupt, no Mr Smith's here in the US), there are some who do not like how he does what he does.

We really will have a lot of the world beating up on us here soon if we don't stop.
As much as a lot of religious people would like to believe, christianity and its factions are NOT the most popular religion. Islam and its factions are, by a large lead from what I recently read somewhere (where the hell was that?).

As for what one of you mentioned earlier (sorry I am forgetting more and more of who said what at the moment, but this thread was mostly just 2.5 - 3.5 people (dont consider the mud slinging comments to count, sorry) making comments)

ok, my train of thought has been derailed, getting harder to concentrate and maintain good thoughts
its approaching 8:20pm here (eastern US), and it is my friday night
i just worked 9 hours today and had a long week
im off to play games, ill check back later
peace

[Gene]

First, I consider myself as American as the next guy and I apologise to Spearthrower for having to say this.

I apologise for Sandwich Maker. Most Americans aren't like that.

Second, I am an American. I can see, quite easily mind you, that our government is f-ed up. For lack of a better term.

However, just because I'm an American doesn't mean I take an 'insult,' if you call it that, to my country as seriously as some and I belive it makes all Americans look like asses when someone does and claims to speak for us.

And I suppose that's all I've got to say. For now.

-Gene

[Spearthrower]

Thanks guys.... I'm glad that you can see that I wasn't bashing your country at all. And don't worry Gene, I would never base my judgement of a nation on the actions of a single person.... anyway, I have plenty of American friends who hold widely differing views about all this - sometimes I can just sit back and watch them go at it hammer and tongs! :)

I dont know if I am just irrepressibly positive or naive but I still believe that something *can* be done about this and that something *should* be done about this. Obviously whether people consider the action in Thailand to be counter-democracy or not (I could argue this point actually, there was little democratic mechanism here to oust someone who controlled the country the way Thaksin did) - still the outcome has done a very great thing for this country - turning it away from corruption and possibly resolving all the terrorist attacks in the south in one foul swoop. If the coup leader Sonthi lives up to his promises, I guarantee you he will be remembered as a national hero. My point is - this could happen in any country and it could happen peacefully.

Anyway, glad to see some gentlemen speak. Thanks for your kind words guys.

Spear

[dharma]

As an American journalist, I'll say this much.

It's the oil, and if you can't see that, you've got some petroleum-based products (such as the computer you're using and a litany of other things that actually make 'civilized' life 'civilized') blinding you.

Wait 15-20 years before you answer me.

[Spearthrower]

It's all about the oil... I agree especially as I'vebeen saying it since Bush came in.... look how he suddenly gets so altruistic about Sudan now - doesnt give a damn about Zimbabwe but WE MUST DO SOMETHING about Sudan..... the very country that has a lot of untapped and unexplored oil reserves. The country that has managed to turn its impoverished, post-colonial economy around in a matter of a couple of years. Output was flying up before this inconvenient little war they're having.

I believe that we have seen the beginning of a century or more of warfare. If we survive it, I am sure it will become known as the Oil Wars or something similar... and Bush will be one of the bad guys.

I am happy to wait 20 years to be proven wrong.... i doubt it though although we can but pray that sensible, ecologically minded leaders achieve power soon (interested in what Gore is doing!) who value peace over dominion. It's about time humanity did some evolving.

[Opieo]

It is about time, we've been overdue for awhile.
This is even more off topic, and a far away side thought:
If any animal ever started to evolve and we (humans in general) got our hands on it, chances are that the evolution would stop there. We (usually scientists, but i only view very few as bad) would probably kill it and study it and not allow it reproduce or something stupid like that.

Funny article on CNN today mentioning how badly the officials are lying.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/25/iraq.democrats.ap/index.html?section=cnn_topstories
I also saw a public television station special a little back saying how Cheney kept lying about something (dont recall specific topic atm). The head of the CIA I believe it was mentioned that he was lying, mentioned it a second time, then Cheney threatened him in private that if he ever mentioned something again, he would lose his job.

I have seen article after article and specials on tv how soo many high up people (amongst many organizations and groups) have quit their positions because they just cannot condone and go along with all the corruption that proliferates through the "higher-ups" in government.

And I have always thought that Bush does it for the moneys (oil)

[MadTexan]

I'm not sure I can agree on that unless we have a different understanding of the word "principle".

There are core principles in any nation - these principles set it aside from another.... and where shared with another nation, tend to bring it together. Sometimes these principles are religious... sometimes cultural... etc.

Obviously the U.S. has a lot of shared principles with countries such as Canada and the U.K. - these are social and historical ones.... While the U.S. shares more economic and political ones with say Italy and France.

The principles of the U.S. are the things that give it common identity. I don't consider that romantic, it's from an anthropological perspective - you can determine where people are from based upon their belief systems - not that they believe x is x or y is y... but that their scope ranges from x - y.

Are you really saying that you dont think there is enough in common between states to create a feeling of national unity? If so, then yes my understanding of the USA is deeply flawed.

Sorry it took so long to get back to this, got busy at work and at home I play TQ, not read the forums.

No, we have the same definition of principles, but what you're not considering is the human factor in how much variability there'll be in the actual daily application of them.

For example, the US stands for democracy and freedom for all, yet our government carefully picks and chooses which countries to try and bring this to.

[MadTexan]

He also claimed at another point the WMD, which was also obviously wrong.
And now he is doing the same thing to Iran.

The situation with Iran is a lot more complicated, and dangerous.

It is open fact that Iran wants Israel gone, period. This isn't some idle speculation from the West, it's official documented policy and well known, and for those that may be unaware this is direct contravention to United Nations statutes, of which Iran is a member (and is therefore responsible for compliance with those statutes).

So, here we have a UN member state with the stated goal of wiping another one off of the map. This same state says it wants nuclear power for peaceful purposes, but such can be had without in-state fuel enrichment. In fact, several countries have already put forward offers of fuel for their power plants to get Iran to back off of pursuing this technology, but they adamantly refuse.

What the world leaders have to considering in the face of this refusal is what all possible outcomes of an Iran capable of fuel enrichment on its own are. One of those outcomes is small nuclear weapons getting into the hands of groups such as Hezbollah.

Now, consider what would happen if even a small, man-portable nuclear device were to be set off by Hezbollah in Tel Aviv. Israel would with 100%certainty retaliate harshly, meaning nuclear weapons, with Iran being the prime target and Syria likely thrown in for good measure.

That's the sort of scenario that world leaders are having to consider, and fuel enrichment by Iran is just too dangerous under their stated policies.

[Armada]

Well about the iranian president, quoting him:

"The ONLY thing that will bring peace to the middle east is DESTROYING israel!"

That says about everything about him...

Lol this kinda got extremely off topic ;) Whats the status in thailand atm spear?

[Opieo]

Personally, I think if they all killed each other, then the problems would be sovled.
No people, no problem.
Granted I'd prefer they kill each other off without nukes.

Silly humans ...

[Spearthrower]

Sorry it took so long to get back to this, got busy at work and at home I play TQ, not read the forums.

No, we have the same definition of principles, but what you're not considering is the human factor in how much variability there'll be in the actual daily application of them.

For example, the US stands for democracy and freedom for all, yet our government carefully picks and chooses which countries to try and bring this to.

Hey no problem - I aint going anywhere! :lol:

I think we have reached one of those points where we both disagree but we are arguing the same point. I think any individual in your country if asked would state that they stand for democracy and freedom for all - that is what I meant by a common principle. That the government manipulate people by stating that is their governmental aim then dealing inequally with other nations but hiding it back home is a different, although very important point.


The situation with Iran is a lot more complicated, and dangerous.

It is open fact that Iran wants Israel gone, period. This isn't some idle speculation from the West, it's official documented policy and well known, and for those that may be unaware this is direct contravention to United Nations statutes, of which Iran is a member (and is therefore responsible for compliance with those statutes).

So, here we have a UN member state with the stated goal of wiping another one off of the map. This same state says it wants nuclear power for peaceful purposes, but such can be had without in-state fuel enrichment. In fact, several countries have already put forward offers of fuel for their power plants to get Iran to back off of pursuing this technology, but they adamantly refuse.

What the world leaders have to considering in the face of this refusal is what all possible outcomes of an Iran capable of fuel enrichment on its own are. One of those outcomes is small nuclear weapons getting into the hands of groups such as Hezbollah.

Now, consider what would happen if even a small, man-portable nuclear device were to be set off by Hezbollah in Tel Aviv. Israel would with 100%certainty retaliate harshly, meaning nuclear weapons, with Iran being the prime target and Syria likely thrown in for good measure.

That's the sort of scenario that world leaders are having to consider, and fuel enrichment by Iran is just too dangerous under their stated policies.

While I totally agree with all that you say, you have to also add Israel and its foreign policy into the mix. We continue to rob Peter to pay Paul and in so doing we are the ones responsible for this mess. How is it that Israel has nuclear weapons? Officially they dont.... but we all know they do - it's not even a question. We have given them nukes to "defend" themselves..... nukes are *not* defensive except as bully tactics. By giving them nukes we have already created the arms race there. Israel believes in its ultimate power in the region and acts duly. By bullying and bulling its way through local politics and relations it has steadily created a totally untenable position in the region where they HAVE to be militarily supreme. Continuing to support this imbalanced status quo does admittedly stop all **** hitting the fan.... but you can't dam this kind of thing forever. A nuclear capable Iran is not something anyone really wants to see.... but I have to say that I have reached a point where I think - well screw it, who are we to dictate who is allowed nukes or not.... only one nation has ever used them against civilians and now it is one of the primary nations in ensuring that others dont get that technology (good) but still retains a vast armada of the devices capable of wiping out life on the planet many times over (bad.... and hypocritical).



Well about the iranian president, quoting him:

"The ONLY thing that will bring peace to the middle east is DESTROYING israel!"

That says about everything about him...

Lol this kinda got extremely off topic ;) Whats the status in thailand atm spear?

Yeah, the guy's a looney. He's perfectly in line with most other world leaders in our "modern" era.

Oh Thailand's groovy - I highly recommend peaceful military coups - they work wonders, dont disrupt anything and everyone seems very happy.


Personally, I think if they all killed each other, then the problems would be sovled.
No people, no problem.
Granted I'd prefer they kill each other off without nukes.

Silly humans ...


The problem is they'll take everyone else with them.... and every other living thing too.... Well, maybe rats, ants and cockroaches might survive.... bombing people back to the Stone Age is one thing.... bombing the world back to the protozoic era is another altogether!! :errf:

[sadhukar]

TBH, I used to be neutral but after all those allegations showed up, I now hate Taksin's guts and am glad that he's gone.

[Opieo]

that still doesnt defeat the point:
no humans, no problem *very evil grin*
and we could always step in when their war spills over their lands which it most certainly would
youd just have to convince the rest of the world to let them duke it out on their own
and preferably, let them fight without nukes
which, like you mentioned, everyone knows the US gave em some

[Spearthrower]

TBH, I used to be neutral but after all those allegations showed up, I now hate Taksin's guts and am glad that he's gone.


For the first couple of years I liked him.... he seemed to be streamlining the economy and doing good for the country. Then the great plague of political Asia struck and he started digging into the country's coffers for his own ends. He set himself too high and tried to take power that didnt belong to him... by doing so, he set himself up for a fall.... a long fall! I am sure he hasn't hit the bottom yet - let's see what the corruption courts turn up. I wouldn't be surprised to see him in prison yet!!

[Opieo]

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyid=2006-09-27T131929Z_01_BKK308186_RTRUKOC_0_US-THAILAND-DANCERS.xml&src=rss

No more dancing girlies for the soldiers =(

[Gene]

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyid=2006-09-27T131929Z_01_BKK308186_RTRUKOC_0_US-THAILAND-DANCERS.xml&src=rss

No more dancing girlies for the soldiers =(
If that's not a kick in the crotch of good times for lonely soldiers I dunno what is. :p

-Gene

[Spearthrower]

Yeah I am not sure that the Generals have worked out the whole m-o-r-a-l-e thing yet! :D