View Full Version : What would make a good duo for multiplayer?
11-15-2011, 06:36 AM
My fiance and I are tossing around ideas at the moment for what to do as a duo. There are already so many possibilities in this game for wrecking it solo that we figured it could get even nastier. Both of us having dream has already come up since we could use two trances, but I have the feeling we can do even worse. I have the feeling that a caster is going to get the most benefit from a duo since you could have your partner buff up your damage even more, but there could be all sorts of other combinations I'm not seeing.
The biggest hurdle we've found so far is that most of the time the two trees that help a class most (say storm and spirit for an oracle) are already the two best trees for increasing the damage of lightning, finding a way to make it go even higher from a third/fourth tree seem somewhat difficult since the best buffs are generally self-only.
Any ideas? We're up for pretty much anything right now.
Well, I highly recommend the Nature class as a support if you are looking for ways to beef up your party. Heart of the oak will give you 65% more health when it is maxed, and it's two synergies give you a chance to reduce energy cost by -50% for all spells and 18% elemental resistance. What makes this skill great for a party is the fact it will work on the entire party. Add the Wolves and Nymph to that and you have an entire party with high health, and not to mention the fact that those animals in turn have party boosting skills they use in combat.
Not only that but the regrowth skill(healing) and synergies will keep everyone alive in those dire situations. Also, Plague helps to weaken enemies significantly when it's cast, which means your rather large group would decimate the enemy in seconds.
I'd recommend the non-tank of the group should try this out as a secondary or even primary mastery, it's fun to meddle with. I've currently got a Bow Ranger on the go(Hunting/Nature) and I honestly think it's my most favourite combination I have tried so far.
If one of you is looking for a tank type, with a bit more spice in it, then a Templar or Harbinger are always fun classes to play due to the skills like phantom strike and distort reality. The nightmare summon will boost the Rangers pets also, which is a nice thought.
I have actually never played multiplayer, but I believe everything I said is pretty accurate. I could see this being a powerful duo, and very fun to play at that. Hope this helps! choosing a mastery always takes me about ten years...
11-15-2011, 11:09 AM
yeah, nature or spirit for support (not much offensive skills on those tabs)
warfare > hunting > anything else for the tank
basically you can't choose wrong, all the masteries are great in a way, there are no wasted builds like in diablo
if you are unhappy you can always buy back some skills
11-15-2011, 02:49 PM
Other than buffs, there are debuffs to boost damage.. Plague, Flush Out etc, for improving Oracle's DPS output.
11-15-2011, 03:40 PM
Right now we have a Dream/Nature caster and a Spirit/Dream melee tank, lots and lots of stacking debuffs and pets everywhere. No clue how it will work long term but its working in normal. Unsure about both of us using dream but having two trances is kind of nice.
Could always change my character to nature/storm and get Squall since right now all I have in dream is ToE and Nightmare anyway. Could have her take nightmare since her build isn't nearly as tight as mine (so many nature goodies). I think it's very much coming down to nature being primary and having a second tree for me will be only for 1-2 other powers, but what tree gives the best 1-2 powers...
So far I see it this way:
Spirit: Requires way to much investment to be useful on top of nature
Rogue: Blade Honing, not always useful
Hunter: Adds a lot of good tools for a pierce character, but she's not playing one so they would be mostly wasted. Nature's Remedy is nice for poison resist though
Storm: Squall, Wisp, maybe Thunder Ball and/or Spell Breaker. Never liked Spell Breaker though honestly, maybe I'm weird. Squall is always great though.
Earth: Lots of fire buffs...not sure its useful for this group. Has another pet though :D
Defense: Rally, which is really nice...for 10 seconds.
Warfare: Battle Standard and a single point in Ancestral Spirit isn't a bad idea
Dream: ToE (she takes ToC) and I could take the nightmare instead of her. Her build definitely has more loose points laying around for it though.
So yea, leaning towards Storm, maybe Warfare, might stick with Dream though. Not sure which would work best.
I think it comes down to squall vs ToC (shes taking ToE afterall apparently) vs Core Dweller for the most part >.>;; Wonder what having 3 wolves, the lich king, the nightmare, and the core dweller between the two of us would be like...
Not sure if its worth giving up squall for another pet or some regen though. And even then there could be yet another combo I'm not seeing.
[yet another edit]
Seriously considering druid now: http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Druid&master1=4&master2=8&sa=0&m1=32-0-16-12-0-12-8-0-16-8-1-0-0-0-6-12-0-8-0-0-0-0-0&m2=32-0-1-0-12-0-0-0-12-0-0-8-6-12-0-0-1-1-0-6-0-0-0
Between Plague, Squall, and Lightning Bolt I should at least have something to do. May replace Lightning Bolt with Thunderball though, I love stuns...
11-16-2011, 12:53 AM
Storm is definitely the best secondary (group buffs wise) for nature as a pet class, the problem with using it paired with a Diviner is that they're not doing any elemental damage so Eye of the Storm won't really help her much (it is a group buff, not just a pet buff, unlike Mastermind which only does YOUR pets afaik). Storm also (as you've already noticed) gives you more to do while your pets are doing the killing.
I would also advise one of you to drop ToE and use ToW and ToC in normal, you simply don't do enough dps for the adcth (attack damage converted to health) to be as useful as the other two, and mobs don't hit as hard either so the reflect damage is lower.
I think if you're really trying to make both classes have as much possible synergy that they can, while having the tank+healer architype going, I'd say probably your best bet would be Warden + Ranger. Both are generally very skill intensive builds, but put together, they could each get the best of both worlds, one person maxes Art of the Hunt while the other could do Call of the Hunt and Study Prey. The beauty of both these builds is that they excel at piercing damage, since the stat is prevalent on spears and bows (the main weapons of each class). Also, the wolves buff is a group buff so it will hit the Warden too and help him out even more (not that he needs it...wardens are ridiculous when they get up and running late normal and into epic).
edit: If you do keep dream (so you have 2 dreamers), I'd suggest she get ToW and you use ToC because wrath tends to act like a taunt and that'll help her tank better.
11-16-2011, 02:48 AM
For the moment: I am definitely keeping Storm/Nature, currently planning this build: http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Druid&master1=4&master2=8&sa=0&m1=32-0-16-12-0-12-8-0-16-8-1-0-0-0-6-12-0-8-0-0-0-0-0-0&m2=32-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-12-0-12-0-6-12-0-0-1-1-12-2-0-0-0-0
This is the build she plans on using for her Spirit/Dream: http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Diviner&master1=2&master2=9&sa=21&m1=32-6-12-0-8-0-1-10-6-16-1-0-8-0-12-8-1-0-1-1-0-0&m2=32-0-1-0-12-8-12-6-5-1-8-0-0-1-1-1-6-0-0-8-12-0
We weren't going for the best healer/tank setup, only caster/ranged and melee. For the moment we have these synergies that we were looking at:
1: Wolves + Lich + Wisp + Nightmare
2: Squall + Plague + Deathchill Aura (and it's sub-skills)
There may be other good ones but those are the main two we are looking at.
I really wish I could find more points for Wisp, although I've heard fairly mixed reviews on if it's really worth more than a single point investment. EotS only having two points on the other hand is a big shame, but I can't seem to find any place to pull points out. In theory I could move some from Permanence of Stone once our resists are high enough but that's for sometime in the future of course.
She will most likely be using Trance of C until epic, then switching to Trance of E.
One of the concerns she has, although I keep telling her it's fine, is if a melee Diviner is any good. I see no real issues with them personally, they aren't the highest DPS melee character but I see no reason she should have concerns about her character as far as being useless goes. The lich alone brings a nice amount of utility to the table and dream is incredible at making a melee character nasty in my opinion.
Anyway, all the advice is appreciated, if you have more keep it coming ^_^ I love to get feedback, make adjustments, etc.
As a note, we did consider going haruspex/warden/ranger/etc just to try out a group of double piercers, but then I made a haruspex as my primary solo/farm character (and holy heck did it turn out stronger than I thought it would once I got my bow tree maxed out around level 19) and I didn't want to make another archer ^-^;;
11-16-2011, 04:58 AM
My druid [build (http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Druid&master1=4&master2=8&sa=5&m1=19-1-14-1-4-1-0-0-1-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&m2=32-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-1-0-1-0-0-0-14-0-1-6-0-0)] is almost finished with normal, and I rushed straight for maxed EOTS before even maxing the wisp, which I did immediately afterwards. With elem pet gear, his thunderclap crits for over 1k which is more than even wolves do in act 1 of legendary so...its definitely worth it even solely from a petmaster stand point. Also, I basically made it from the start of the game to act 3 just watching my wisp kill things, it was surprising quick and painfree I don't think I used a single potion.
On paper a melee Diviner sounds amazing, I've been planning on making one, but I don't quite have the gear for it yet. Max ToW and Deathchill = best melee debuff combo afaik. Also, both masteries synergize vitality which makes it a clear choice for damage specialization, the best part? both pets do vitality damage as well! So if so choose (which is what I'll be aiming for with my melee diviner) you could make it a melee divining petmaster :o
As far as the archers go, I agree, my haru is almost finished with normal as well, and pretty much 1-2 shots everything doing upwards of 1500 on single shots. I'm still holding off on making a Ranger, because to me the synergy is so amazing, I kind of have the feeling of "saving the best for last" with it. I love playing pet classes, and archers are amazing fun too...so best of both worlds :D
11-16-2011, 08:11 AM
Have to admit I did not think the wisp would be that good. I always seem to find very mixed reviews on the wisp/nymph (also saw your thread in the nature forum). If they end up being that useful I may have to squeeze more points in for them long term but where the heck am I supposed to get them?
The only option I see (since I still want the debuffs of Plague and Squall) would be to leave out my offensive lightning spell and static charge and really go the pet master route and ignore my own DPS entirely. That seems like it would ignore the whole point of storm though, crazy stacking lightning DPS. I have to wonder how that would work in the long run...
11-16-2011, 08:24 AM
I haven't even touched plague and I'm 35 on mine. As far as debuffs goes, I'd say you're fine without them until see an increase in pet deaths (or damage they're taking) or a decrease in kill speed, othewise they're just a waste of energy and time (to cast). I am using lightning with its synergy (1 point in each), and its doing good damage, 4-500 with crits around 1k, but the cooldown makes it more of a pulling tool than anything else at this point, which I'm fine with.
Also, regarding planning builds, keep in mind you'll be using +skills gear and if you go over +4 (like I have) then you can drop points from skills since they cap at 4 over the shown limit (so call of the wild caps at 20/16, etc.).
Also keep in mind, all the figures I'm giving are on a fairly twinked character, so if this is your first one, you won't have the luxury of +6 skills in normal, like I do. You also won't have all the fancy dual affix jewelry I do either. With that in mind, I'd suggest focusing more on survivability and working your way up the Regrowth tree so you can help keep her and the pets healed. As far as debuffs go, I'd also suggest focusing on one or the other, for simplicities sake I'd recommend plague since its easier to aim and offers more due to an extra synergy. As far as order, I'd max Susceptibility first, then Plague itself, and finally Fatigue.
11-16-2011, 08:25 AM
No Spell Breaker/Spell Shock? I'd take that over a maxed Wisp or Nymph any day. Insta-kills several bosses and takes about 60% off the health of several others with one cast. Plus it turns off two of the biggest threats to pets: Onslaught and Deathchill aura on monsters.
11-16-2011, 08:47 AM
There are many good combinations for two people... as long as one goes int and the other strength.
One of my favourites would probably be Hunting + Warfare + Rogue + Nature for killer wolves and traps.
Though Spirit instead of Nature (Warlock with Mandrake Ternion + undisturbed Slayer :)) is also nice for this and adds some boss killers.
Storm/Nature caster and Spirit/Dream melee
The only thing that combo is lacking a bit are AoE attacks in the late game. Distort Reality on a strength char will be mainly used for stopping then, while Ice Shards lose their punch. And neither of you can attack more than 1 guy with your weapon.
You will still manage, with your pets and all. And anyway you should play the class you like. It will just not be as easy as it would be with other combos.
11-16-2011, 10:50 AM
Yay for more ideas. Here's a question though...
Oracle or Warlock?
I cheated up a character to test out the pet toon and it's kinda boring ^^; Glad I tested it that's for sure.
Also, we do play what we have fun with, we just like to make very nasty groups V :) It's always more fun when you're destroying everything hehe. The only thing we try to do is have one of us str focused and one int so that we never have gear division issues.
So now the question is, if I wanted to do either an Oracle or a Warlock, which would be better in a group and what would support it the best? :D
Yea, I'm indecisive ~_^
11-16-2011, 12:56 PM
Warlock does less damage with the staff, but AoE-spreads Manrake confusion on everyone, which is so devastating it borders on cheating.
Combine that with his traps that, now, mow everything down (thanks to your partner's Battle Standard AND pierce damage auras) and a Slayer who can... well... SLAY without needing to worry about defense, and whatever gets in there is very dead.
11-16-2011, 01:20 PM
I like the Druid & Spellbreaker combo. Druid is really just there to cast Squall for protection against ranged, debuff enemies with Squall and Plague, turn off auras (and nuke some bosses) with SB/SS and provide extra Health for the whole party.
Spellbreaker has a grand old time of it. They are wrecking balls and boss destroyers deluxe but can be a bit fragile, what with having no shield and all. But this Spellbreaker gets:
1) Extra Health from HoO and extra elemental resistance from Permanence of Stone
2) FIVE sources of damage mitigation: Obscured Visibility, Ignore Pain, Ravages of Time, Fatigue and Battle Standard
3) Wolves buffing his already ridiculous damage output even more, along with the extra debuffs of OV and Susceptibility
Then, of course, the Spellbreaker casts BS, which kinda turns the Wolves into killing machines too. There's no need to heal the Wolves because the SB's Necrosis and an ...of Convocation ammy on the Druid means that the Wolves can leech off Undeads and Devices. Toss in Ancestors and Outsider and you have yourself a nice damage party.
Of course, if the SB happens to find Sapros on his travels, and hits a boss with it just as the LK casts Soul Blight on it, it turns the Druid's SB/SS into... well, let's not even go there.
11-16-2011, 01:50 PM
So warlock vs oracle basically comes down to control vs DPS. I've seen some videos of both characters, both look nice, although the oracle seems to kill most mobs before crowd control even becomes necessary. That and confusion apparently gets resisted a lot later. Dunno, making mobs dance is a fun idea but so is frying their brains with lightning :(
11-16-2011, 02:08 PM
The problem with Oracle is that your killer aura, Deathchill/Necrosis, isn't in the frontlines. Unless your Oracle runs up to monsters and shoots them in the face. But that isn't really the Oracle's forte.
You really want Spirit on the melee tank. That way, monsters are clustered within the radius of DC, which is exactly where you want them to be. The pets (and the players in the party) can then leech life off everything.
You can have a Spirit caster operating very close behind a melee tank. But the problem then is that Ternion and DC are both aggro magnets. The moment monsters become aware of them, they often break off whatever they were attacking and head to the Ternion/DC source instead. So you could have a situation where monsters ignore the tank and target the fragile caster, which is not what you want.
A melee tank with DC will grab all the aggro instantly. As long as the caster waits until the monsters are engaged, this makes casting Plague, Squall, Study Prey and other aggro magnets a lot safer. Melee tanks should be aggro magnets and brick walls, not pursuers or interceptors. If the caster lets fly with aggro spells too quickly, monsters will just run around the tank.
This is where Warfare makes a great tank as well. If the monsters break off when an aggro-grabbing spell is cast on them, chances are they'll be Hamstrung anyway. Good luck to them if they think they can run down a caster while Hamstrung.
11-16-2011, 02:14 PM
Things like this are what make me question if crowd control is really needed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEWsharbC3k
You might not get the slows but everything is already dead anyway. I do tend to play more carefully than aggressively though so who knows...Warlock might suit me better. Throw in a trap to distract mobs, walk in and say hi with Ternion, watch the dance party as my fiance murders everything.
And this is a rather ugly video for warlocks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZUv3q7KTc Made me sad that they didn't use traps at all but they didnt seem to even need them ^^;;;
The question is, how important is the slow from the daggers for this? It seems like most of the time you just run forward and unload, couldn't an oracle also do that but with even higher damage? Or at least the oracle wouldn't have to rely on a harrowing staff with it's huge DPS, and there's no reason not to send the oracle into melee. Lead with squall, while mobs try to close with you just nuke them down with Ternion.
Both seem capable of massive destruction in melee, but...I could be wrong, it's not like I have either to play with right now.
11-16-2011, 05:57 PM
If all you want is massive destruction in melee, take a Spear Charmer+Conqueror, Slayer+Spellbreaker, Spellbinder+Harbinger....basically anything involving Dream, Hunting, Warfare, Spirit, and Defense. You said you want one person running +str and the other +int for gear issues, the thing is a lot of the +str gear is class focused anyways so unless you run Conq + Slayer and find some Warriors Bracers, you'd be ok I think. I'd just try to make sure you have Deathchill so both people can leech from everything.
11-16-2011, 06:16 PM
You need to be careful about taking your view of classes from YouTube videos. Usually the toon is twinked to heck and back, and the video maker only shows you the impressive bits - not the bits where he was one-shotted by certain foes. Most of my toons play very differently from the YouTube showcase videos that others post. I don't twink and seldom attain the attack and killing speeds that they do.
I can tell you from experience that an Oracle can't just rush in and kill everything. My Oracle is at level 66 and finished Legendary. I could make you a video of my Oracle racking up some quite impressive killing sprees. But then I'd be leaving out the bits where she died or got owned and had to flee for her life. She is a powerful caster as casters go. But she's still a caster and needs to be played as such. She got through Act IV Legendary with only one death in that Act (to a Dactyl) but I still had to proceed cautiously.
The other aspect is that people don't show you how their level 20 or 40 or 50 toons play, they only do post-Legendary videos where the toon is fully equipped with all the best items.
Warlock is a bit sturdier than Oracle and, with Envenom working in its favour, can play a bit more aggressively with Ternion. But there are many places where I'd be circumspect about rushing in with either toon. Oracles go down super quickly in Legendary. Even a trash mob Mantid takes about 1/2 my health off with each hit. You can rush in and a video of your highlights will look great. But you'll probably also die a lot.
11-16-2011, 10:10 PM
Thanks again for all the info. I slept on it a bit, always seems to help me think better, we think we have a better idea of what we're doing now. Completely different than what we were originally going to do, but the posts here helped us weave our way to it, so...time to ask for opinions again!
Me: Melee Diviner (http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Diviner&master1=2&master2=9&sa=21&m1=32-6-0-0-8-0-1-0-6-16-1-0-8-0-12-8-1-0-1-1-0-0&m2=32-0-12-0-0-8-12-6-5-7-8-0-12-1-1-12-6-0-0-8-12-0)
A bit unsure on which trance to use honestly, but from what I understand the burn from ToW actually overwrites the burn from Distort Reality and I really don't want that, not with all the debuffs coming from spirit. If that isn't correct I can see using ToW possibly. Anyway, survivability is a wonderful thing. I filled out the build entirely but I have the feeling realistically a lot of the skills with full points will end up as one point wonders. Any realistic advice for how the build should eventually look would be appreciated since this is more of an ideal one obviously. Heck, maybe it's not even ideal, maybe I missed something obvious. Also very unsure really about psionic touch/burn...
My fiance: Caster/Pet Ritualist (http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Ritualist&master1=4&master2=9&sa=21&m1=32-0-16-12-0-12-8-0-16-8-3-0-0-0-6-12-0-8-0-0-0-0&m2=32-0-0-12-0-8-0-6-0-0-0-8-0-0-0-1-6-12-12-0-12-0)
I may find the pets a little boring but she loves them (hence why I have nightmare in my character). She brings lots of buffs, a second trance (ToC AND ToE/W?), a second casting of distory reality if we need it, and even more slows with distortion wave. We aren't really sure how badly she needs distort reality since she shouldn't be in melee range but the range is pretty large and its a wonderful "oh )@#%^" button anyway, not to mention the damage.
Anyway, what you think? Little better synergy?
11-17-2011, 01:19 AM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think when it comes to dots only the strongest will be used, so if your fiance uses a maxed PI'd DW and you're running around with maxed ToW I don't think yours should overwrite hers. The main draw (at least in my eyes) for ToW isn't the damage output, but the always active reduced resistance debuff it provides. Unfortunately, they both scale up with points so you do have to max it get the optimal results. The other nice thing about ToW (like I said earlier) too is that it kind of does act like taunt, in which case its that much more beneficial since you'll have deathchill and ravages of time up too and they'll run right to it like moths to a lamp.
I am liking the dual trance idea you seem to be throwing around though, they're all so useful and to be able to have 2 instead of 1 is really nice especially with pets. I think since she's gonna be dream nuking, ToC should be one of them by default so I guess you'll have to figure out whether you like the debuff of ToW or need more survivability with empathy for the pets (although empathy AND convalescence should be overkill even in normal, for keeping them alive).
11-17-2011, 06:29 AM
when it comes to dots only the strongest will be used
That only applies when they come from the same person (and are the same damage type).
I tried that once with five identical pets using the same dot skill, and they stacked.
11-17-2011, 07:01 AM
I think your Trances are the wrong way around. Unless you have a funky way of doing things, the caster usually plays behind the melee toon. Having the damage/debuff aura on the caster, where it often won't reach the monsters in front of the melee toon, is sub-optimal.
Plus ToW draws aggro, ToC doesn't. And ToC has a much bigger radius. I'd rather have the caster running ToC and the melee tank running ToW. That way, ToW is affecting the melee monsters who cluster around the tank, not working in a small radius around the caster who isn't being attacked because it's at the rear of the party.
For your build, I would drop the 7 points out of Psionic Burn (useless) and five points out of Dark Covenant as you won't need that much energy regen with ToC running. I'd use those 12 points to max ToE. Although it won't be your primary aura, it's great against certain bosses like Manticore, Yaoguai, Barmanu and some others. Your fiance could drop some points out of Survival Instinct or Tranquility of Water (won't be needed with ToC and Master Mind) and put a point in each of the Briar Ward skills. Briar reflects so, if you cast ToE and Briar together, it adds more sources of reflect against the boss.
11-17-2011, 07:38 AM
That only applies when they come from the same person (and are the same damage type).
So then what hes worried about is a non issue since his ToW and her PI'd DW will both dot the same target, yes?
11-17-2011, 06:10 PM
Thanks for the even more advice. Made the suggested minor changes, with the exception of the one to Dark Covenant. The reason I have that maxed isn't the regen, it's the duration. And yes, our auras were backwards ^^;
Anyway, I'm guessing this group at least seems plausible since I haven't seen any "Oh god no" posts? :D
11-19-2011, 08:34 AM
Just figured I would update this, not that I think anybody is still curious ^^; but it's something to do.
Currently we are using a melee Soothsayer and an aura Evoker as our group. It's kind of mean honestly. We have an army of pets and between all the debuff, damage, and buffing auras we can almost just stand still and watch everything die.
02-11-2012, 04:07 PM
Well, myself and my buddy are running through on Epic right now. I'm an Assassin, and he's a Ranger. So far we've had exceptional luck with boss fights and massive mobs. And for some odd reason, the drops are a lot more frequent because he's a Ranger, We did the same run on other toons, and the drops were crap. It may just be luck, but either way.
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