[ COMMENTS ] UL Primer

[jiaco]

I really want to say thanks for the UL Primer thread and at the same time do not want to contaminate the thread with such drivel.

It is a great read so far, please continue...

Thanks

[Munderbunny]

This is actually a great idea. Let's turn this thread into the contribution/any random comment thread. I'm often concerned about having enough reserved posts later on.

Sorry to hijack your thread. :)

[gaconff]

ok munder, Damage absorption is not cumulative. For example a monster hit you with 200 dmg and u have no defense; your armor offers 50% damage absorption, your bracers offer 50% and your skill offers 20% doesn't mean that you will get total immunity. You will receive the damage as calculated by this formula: 200*.5*.5*.2= 12.5 dmg

[johnjov]

nay, your calculations are incorrect as damage is calculated for each armor hit at around 66% of the actual armor value or something like that. afaik, no armor provides %damage absorption except for some good skills and that is total damage including physical. I'm bad at this but Munder can explain it best about the mechanics.

[gaconff]

I mean that if u have no armor whatsoever to simplify the calculation john, the % dmg absorption come from opt of the item not from its armor value. Like if u r wearing a vest and a bracer with 0 armor and an opt of 50% dmg absorption

[Munderbunny]

Yeah, he's talking about damage abs, not armor abs. Though, john if you'd like to write up the section on how armor works, it would be appreciated. There hasn't been any change to how it works in Underlord, so you should be able to find plenty of info about it on the forums.

[johnjov]

@gaconff:
apologies for my ignorance, but what do you mean by "opt" value of the item? i've not worked on mods before if it is just another armor parameter.

@munder:
I appreciate your thought in giving me the task to write about armor mechanics if I'm willing to take it. But even if I write one, excluding my poor written english style, it would never meet up to the quality of the threads posted by the experienced players who have done intelligent in-game research on this topic unless I just cut-and-paste from various sources. This is like your final primer in this forum and already you've written superbly about many tactics such as animation triggers and there is a very good chance that if I write one, ppl are going to miss your knowledge treasure trove and I'll be their next meat pie to skewer ;)

[Munderbunny]

The only people safe from criticism are those that do nothing and attempt nothing. ;) Besides, feedback (even critical feedback) is how stuff gets improved. It's a good thing.

As far as your English, I'm not so concerned about it. I do technical writing for a living, so if there's one thing I do well (and quickly) is revising technical documents. I don't expect professional-grade writing from contributors. Most of the work is in writing up the first draft. I have no problem doing cleanup.

[johnjov]

ok then its a yes. But I'm a real lazy guy and deadlines is what motivates me to work ;). when do you want the draft at the latest? I can PM it to you if ok. My armor concepts might be rudimentary and shallow even after extensive reading, so feel free to add your points in the draft. How big do you wish the article to be? I find it difficult presenting mathematical examples and in some cases they go awry, hence your number corrections would enlighten all the readers on the concepts.

[Munderbunny]

Just in the next couple weeks or something. No rush.

Also, check to see what's already been written about armor then find a way to distill it. Like, the info on resistances is like 5,000 words but I managed to get it down to one, fairly simple post.

This is the source for resistance information: http://www.titanquest.net/tq-forum/threads/15037-Resistances-question?p=138671&viewfull=1#post138671

This is the result: http://www.titanquest.net/tq-forum/threads/37194-WIP-UL-Primer?p=412490&viewfull=1#post412490

You can find most info you need from here: http://www.titanquest.net/tq-forum/forums/26-Titan-Quest-Spoilers

There have been some fundamental changes in Underlord, but not to armor calculations.

Don't worry about long lengthy examples. This is a primer, not an encyclopedia. Concision is king. Don't sweat that as you write your first draft, of course. Just get all your info down, then look at it and decide what's gratuitous, what can be clumped together, etc..

[johnjov]

ok, I think I get the gist of this with your good examples. Thanks Munder!

[gaconff]

@gaconff:
apologies for my ignorance, but what do you mean by "opt" value of the item? i've not worked on mods before if it is just another armor parameter.



Opt is the extra things yellow, green, epic, legendary items provide. For example Homodos has an opt of +%att spd. Sorry if nobody use the word "opt" here, that's what we use in our country.

[ASYLUM101]

Opt is the extra things yellow, green, epic, legendary items provide. For example Homodos has an opt of +%att spd. Sorry if nobody use the word "opt" here, that's what we use in our country.

We use the term "Base Stat" for items with a unique affix that isn't tied to... well an affix like say, "of Harrowing".

Or at least, I do. I was confused when I read your post too lol

[johnjov]

@gaconff: thanks for the info

Hey guys! I just wrote some stuff about armor in TQIT and would like your ideas on what theory stuff here is a logical mistake or any info that is quite useful which I'm missing. all credits to all contributors :)


ARMOR

The most prevalent monster damage in Titan Quest is physical damage and the first line of hero’s defense against it is the armor gear it wears, well before shield blocking is factored. Armor gear can be classified into four types depending on where it is equipped – Torso, Head, Wrists and Legs. Each armor piece has a base stat called the individual AR (Armor Rating) value. The ‘Combined Armor’ shown on stats screen is the cumulative AR count including bonuses. A successful enemy attack can land a hit on any one of the four parts of the hero body, and the chance is 40% for the head while 20% for the remaining locations. AR value of the gear equipped on the body part hit determines the amount of physical damage taken by the hero. The pierce portion of the physical damage completely ignores the armor equipped for equivalent health point loss of the hero, considering zero pierce resistance. Monsters have a natural AR value though many do not have visible armor, hence making them tougher to defeat.


ARMOR MECHANICS

Armor gear on each equipment slot does not completely absorb but only limits physical damage; as a result there is always some portion of physical damage getting through. Of the total physical damage landing on a particular armor slot, if the value is greater than the body location’s effective AR, then the excess damage is fully taken by the character. For e.g. – a successful enemy hit lands on the leg; the located armor piece has an AR of 50 and the incoming physical damage is 100, consequently the hero faces excess damage of 50 (100 physical – 50 AR). The remaining physical damage, equal to AR of the equipped armor slot, is not nullified because of an inherent armor property called ‘armor absorption’. Same rule applies even when the total physical damage, in this case at the leg, is less than the slot’s effective AR.

Armor absorption can be stated as the percentage of the given armor piece AR that absorbs an equivalent portion of the residual physical damage. By default, the value is set to be 66% of AR. Repeating the above example and now left with the residual 50 physical damage; the 50 AR armor piece of the leg, on account of the armor absorption property, can soak 33 generic physical damage (0.66 absorption * 50 AR). Thus 17 physical damage (50 physical – 33 generic physical) is suffered by the hero as health point loss.


ARMOR BONUS TYPES

+armor - The most common form of armor bonus seen in the game. It is seen in relics, skills such as ‘Battle Awareness’ and on most items. When the bonus appears on an armor piece, only the slot AR that equips this item benefit from the mentioned +armor bonus. If the bonus appears on any other non-armor item, the complete armor bonus effect is added to all the four slots individually. Example: +4 armor on helm with 70 AR increases the total AR to 74. When all four slots have armor pieces with equal AR value of 60, wearing a ring with +5 armor bonus makes the total AR on all the armor slots to be of 65.

+%armor protection - Another version of armor bonus, seen quite frequently on relics/skills/items, that applies the bonus to all four armor slots, even if the source +%armor protection belongs to a single item of any type. More items having different values of +%armor protection respectively, the percentage bonuses are additive and the total is applied to each armor slot. Example: an amulet and a torso armor each possess bonus attribute of +5% armor protection; the hero now gains +10% armor protection and all four armor slots equipped with 60 AR gear will benefit from an effective total of 66 AR (60 AR + 10% of 60) individually.

+%armor absorption - A potent version of armor bonus that is observed on some skills in the Defense Mastery. It modifies the default 66% armor absorption property of equipped armor gear to a higher value thus enabling the hero to soak much more physical damage. Various sources of +%armor absorption bonuses stack additively. Example: 10% armor absorption of skill ‘Quick Recovery’ and another 16% from skill ‘Armor Handling’ will improve the total value from 66% to give 83% (66% + 26% of 66%) effective armor absorption.



Credits:
Xaece, Phillip Marcus, Poinas

[gaconff]

( I don't know if it's necessary and if somebody already posted similar topic in the forum but I'll post it anyway )
1. Minotaur lord
You will encounter him at the end of Minotaur Labyrinth, right before you meet the first Telkin.
At normal and epic, Minotaur is not very difficult to defeat but he can be a nightmare to range char, especially caster (low defense) in legendary. The reason? He has the skill that dramatically slows you so you can't hit and run. Once he can get near you, his high att spd and dmg + onslaught can finish you off pretty quick. So if you are a hit 'n run char, watch out for his slow skill ( when he is far and start to raise his axe, RUN, dont try to get another hit or else you will be friend with Hades sooner than you think) As long as you can keep your distance, minotaur will go down quick as his defense and resist not very good. Otherwise, if you are a melee char, things will be easier for you, just charge right at him, you should be able to finish him off with no problem (given that you have decent gear to begin with) but just to be on the safe side, watch your hp and drink health potion if needed.
One more thing, destroy those 4 traps if you can before engage him to make thing easier.
2. Talos
You will encounter him before you enter the Minotaur Labyrinth. He only appears in epic and legendary.
Unlike Minotaur, Talos can be a nightmare to melee char. His two signal skills are thunderclap and shoot fire from his arm. The thunderclap skill will be used if you stay in melee range with him; it will stun you and (I’m not sure) sometimes kill you in instant. The fire skill has a fairly long range and crazy dmg. So the strategy is charge at him, pull of 1,2 hit then retreat immediately as he will use thunderclap. Wait until he used thunderclap, charge at him again and this time you can pull of more hit as his skill it on cooldown( Do watch out for fire skill though and when you want to dodge it, run to the right or left, don’t run back because his fire has long range) then repeat until he die. He will cost you sometimes but not too bad. For archer and caster, thing will be easy, just hit him at distance, Talos is slow so he will not be able to catch up to you. Or you can abuse the small way on the wall; Talos with his oversize body can’t get in there so you can hit him with range attack with ease in there.
Kill all those minion around him if you can beforehand to avoid being ganged up.
3. Manticore (or so-called beast of lengend)
He only appears in epic and legendary. His location is deep inside the cave east of Fayum oasis. You will only see a vast space at the end of the cave in normal but he will appear of nowhere in epic and eat you alive (I meant it)
I can say this is one of the toughest bosses in the game. First of all, he’s very fast harder to hit and run or flee away. Secondly, his body is tough (high hp, high defense). Finally, his skills are insane. Arcane breath is easy to dodge ‘cause you can see it coming (but if you want to be Rambo and take it head on… oh well…); he can shoot frost from his back to freeze you, and when you are frozen, god knows what’ll happen; the most dangerous skill is his “headbite”, it look like a normal attack but don’t be mistake, he WILL bite your head off with this skill (i.e insane dmg) He may have a poison attack too but I need to clarify it. Pets (if you have any) can help you in this case. Otherwise if you don’t have any pet, it’ll be a tough battle. Try to dodge any skills he throws at you if possible, strike back right after he uses his skill then dodge again. You will get him eventually. Don’t be discouraged if you die a few times.
4. Nehebkau (aka the scorpion king)
You will have to defeat him before you can get the eyes of chaos.
His characteristic is pretty much like Minotaur: nothing to mention in normal and epic but can be a real monster to range char in legendary. He doesn’t have slow skill like Minotaur but his speed is arguably the highest in the game, even faster than Manticore I could say. He may be harder than Minotaur since you can dodge Minotaur skill but it’s hard to run away from Nehebkau. If you are an archer, use study prey and call of the hunt then use hit and run tactic. I’m not sure if ensnare work on him but if it does, thing’ll be easier for bowyer. If you r caster, use pets to tank for you if possible. Otherwise, don’t run straight in right after open the gate. Cast aoe skill like squall or eruption before hand and keep him debuff as long as possible. Like minotaur, his defense and resist are not high so he will go down quickly (his hp even less than minotaur I believe) if you don’t die before him.
5. Chimera
You will see him in Temple of Madruk
Nothing too special about this one. He can breathe fire which deal decent dmg but u can dodge it easy; he also possesses the thunder clap skill similar to Talos’s. The narrow battle area can yield some problem. However his hp is real low so he will go down very quickly. He also will never chase you if you are at the stair so you can use hit and run tactic very easy, especially for caster and archer.
6. Neanderthal Warlord.
You will have to kill him in order to finish the quest Mysteries in the Mountain (?).
The Warlord himself is not too special: average low hp, average resist. However his dmg and att spd are high (not crazy like manticore but still). But that is not the main problem. His power lies within his skill : sonic wave and Ice shower. Sonic wave will stun you for a freaking long time, enough for him to finish you off with his dual wield attacks. Ice shower, hmm what can I say, insane dmg; 1 hit and you will have a free trip back to Chumbi Valley fountain. But you can dodge this skill if you are cautious. When he raise his clubs and start to dance like a monkey ( well he is one anyway), it’s time to get the hell away from him. If you are a caster, try to stay slightly out of his sight and cast aoe skill like Squall toward his position. If you are an archer then hit’ run; the same for melee char. Note than u can always flee back in the cave in case of emergency, he will not chase you there. Just be ccareful and you can take care of him.
Neanderthal Warlord is actually just a side quest boss but he may be the most annoying boss out there, second to Manticore.
7. Dragon Liche (aka lord of the undead)
Only appear in epic and legend at the shrine of Zhong Kui
IMO, this is the most impressive boss in the game: a super size zombie dragon ( who don’t like Dragon? And a zombie one too) He’s supposed to be stronger than Hades but due to the location, he may be the easiest boss to defeat.
He has 3 main skills. Ice breath will freeze you around 5 sec, enough for him to send you back to hades. Wing slap, despite of the awesome visual effect, doesn’t deal much dmg; however it will make all your skill go to cooldown time again caster should be careful with this. The other skill he will concentrate all his inner energy and bump them out and deal massive dmg in short range.
You can abuse the stairway to attack him without getting hit by his skills. In additions, his cast time is slow so you can always dodge them if needed.
Be aware that he seems to have high chance to avoid projectile so archer may have some problem hitting him. Also he has the mindcontrol ability, which he take control of ur pet, so don’t besuprise if your beloved core dweller turn around and burn you to the ground.
(to be continue)

[gaconff]

(sorry, double post, delete this one pls)

[johnjov]

(sorry, double post, delete this one pls)
you're supposed to delete this using Edit post

[claudius]

1) with dots if you hit with the same dot type a small dot. and then you hit with a bigger dot. I am sure they don't stack but does the big dot overwrite the small. same damage type.

2) where that is going.... if you hit with a poison dagger with monkey tricks. The mechanics section said sapros needs a second hit for the lowered resist to trigger including dots. So say you hit with poison dagger with monkey trix. Then you hit him again.... will the bigger (since resist lowered) dot overwrite the littler dot?

3) bonus question: is occultist like rogue in that its damages don't scale to legendary?

[Munderbunny]

1) Elemental dots don't stack; the larger will apply. Different sources of poison damage do stack. Bleeding has not been tested that I know of. I'm assuming it works like poison.

2) Yes, bigger dot from same source will apply after resist reduction.

3) Poison, bleeding, and vitality decay are not affected by stats. However, that being said, there are monster bonuses to those damage types found in the game that are comparable to large stat bonuses. You could work to get 2,000 INT for a +300% bonus to Elemental damage by Legendary, or get +500% bonus to poison damage by Epic with far less skill and equipment investment. In vanilla, a pure-poison build suffered from low damage and difficulty struggling against monster resistances. In Underlord, it's a much easier build to pull off.

[johnjov]

You could work to get 2,000 INT for a +300% bonus to Elemental damage by Legendary, or get +500% bonus to poison damage by Epic with far less skill and equipment investment
Hey munder, good info abt DoT as I never knew poison DoTs stack. so you're trying to imply INT improves poison damage or am I overlooking something?

[Munderbunny]

Int does not improve poison damage. But, there are equipment bonuses to Poison that improve it by much larger amounts than you'll ever find for elemental damage, or to intelligence, and for a much lower investment as well. I'm saying, you'll never get +150% elemental damage from a single piece of equipment like you can with poison damage.

[claudius]

For poison and bleeding did new prefixes/suffixes items create? Did existing gear get new poison stat? Example now Turquoise bow has +60% poison or what not? Not saying that would be balanced I have no idea, but just illustrating that existing things had mods added? I haven't noticed diseased plumage a difference yet, but then I never looked at it before because it was crap, and a deathweaver tip or tainted hasn't dropped for me yet.

One problem in vanilla was that like a deathweaver and level 20 amulet was awesome. But at level 60 that amulet didn't have the right resists. They did have star of elysium but I never got that. Legtips were good, but there were no kthonian legtips and anyway rogue needed spear for blade honing and lethal strike. Mechanics. Legtip rocked normal greece though :)

[claudius]

From the underlord primer (quoted):


"What does OA and DA do?

Offensive Ability is your prowess with melee weapons. Defensive Ability is your prowess defending against melee attacks.

Every time a creature or player swings a weapon at another, the game checks each unit's combat ability by comparing the attackers OA against the defender's DA.

If the DA is higher than the attacker's OA, the incoming damage is reduced. If the defender has 100 more DA than the attacker's OA, damage is reduced by 10% (and another 5% for each additional 100 points of DA). This means if the attacker has 300 OA and the defender has 500 DA, the defender reduces 15% of the damage.

If the OA is higher than the defender's DA, the attack has a chance to land a critical hit. Higher OA affects both the chance of landing a critical hit, and the damage the critical hit lands for. The higher the better. The lowest critical hit is 130% damage, and the highest is 250% damage."

Does that mean dexterity will make me do more damage to monsters aside from critical hits? Is that true only melee or bows too? Would it be better to take more dexterity on a weapon with high piercing for example a occult build with spear and shadow link? Or even just a spear (bow if ranged too) without occult?

[Munderbunny]

If you are playing a build with lots of piercing, it's recommended to go 1:1 STR:DEX.

OA and DA only affect melee combat. If you are playing a melee character, you are advised to keep your OA and DA high, especially important in later difficulties. OA will increase your damage output my keeping you from falling behind enemy DA and eventually giving you more critical hits. You want to find a good balance between the amount of damage you're dealing and your combat ability.