Worst character class?

[mothwentbad]

I don't know if this is productive or not, but I thought it would be a good change of pace to ask: What's the *worst* character class out there? Follow-up: Ok, it *looks* like a bad combination. But do you think you could make it work?

I kind of think that it almost doesn't matter, since if your classes don't combine well, you can always pump one a lot and then just pick up those one or two skills from the other tree that actually help you out. For example, a melee Champion character could take just a few points of Heart Of Oak, Regrowth, and Accelerated Growth. At high levels, when the Warfare tree looks solid, he could come back for Heart Of Stone and Refresh. Plague with Fatigue might make an ok crowd control debuff at early-mid levels, and then susceptibility could probably help a lot at high levels... See, there's more than it seems at first.

It seems like every time a combination seems like it wouldn't work, it turns out better than I thought if I just think about it harder. But TQ is just kind of fun like that.

One thing I haven't thought about yet, though, is mixing up magic types - seems kind of like you could spread yourself too thin in ways that don't stack, like storm/earth. The only thing I can think of at the moment is to put all points in Earth for a long time, and then eventually get Eye Of The Storm maxed out. Maybe get a couple defensive enhancements along the way, too.

The trouble with magic/magic is that it's not as obvious what to do as when you have a hybrid fighter type. But it might still work.

[BrigandPwnage]

I think you'd want to look out for single mastery chars. Even if you can add a lot of points to the masteries skills, it would help to consider to look after some other skills such as the Lightning Bolt and Trance of Wraith (Prophet(Dream, Storm)) instead of something like Lucid Dream (Dream) or Throwing Knifes (Rogue) only. I would consider to look out for Theurgist (Spirit) as I've had a bad past with this pointless mastery. Something you would possibly like would be the Dreamkiller (Dream, Rogue) or the Assassin (Rogue, Warfare). Those would be the best skills I've worked up on. Whooped those little monster butts with Dreamkiller (which I HIGHLY recommend to max out Trance of Wraith if you do do this mastery). But, if they don't work out, try this: http://www.titancalc.com/

[mothwentbad]

Hah, I wasn't even thinking of single-class builds. I figured no one was doing those, anyway. :-D

[Joopa]

How you build your character has more impact on success than what classes you chose. Deficies can be overcome with equipment anyway.

[mothwentbad]

I suppose so, Joopa. I just figured it might be interesting to run the usual class selection process backward - instead of shopping for combinations you want in the same charcter, looking for something that seems awkward and then making it work. Instead of saying, "clearly Earth Enchantment would be good for a melee or ranged character. Which looks the best?", I would say, "storm/spirit seems difficult to work with. What can I do with what's there?"

[Irma2]

There is no worst character class. They're all viable in some way.

[johnjov]

or more appropriately, which is the toughest class combinations to play? If there was a worse class, then it would have been made obsolete by the developers as it implies there are few good gear & skills to make it viable on the long run

[Violos]

looking for something that seems awkward and then making it work

Try a Sorcerer or Magician.

The knack is, as you say, to make those work on synergies rather than just pumping one half and adding one or two utility skills.

Battlemage is another... but I won't start on that again. :D

[mothwentbad]

"the knack is..." meaning that's what really works, or that's what's hardest to accomplish?

[Violos]

The point, or the art if you want.

Not like making an Earth mage who also thows poison bombs and declaring this an effective combination. This sounds cheesy, but for a combo to be good by another merit than using powerful masteries, I believe they must become more than the sum of the parts.

Flash Powder or Mandrake-Flurry are a little better in this regard, for example, because they combine well with the ranged, evasive nature of a mage. But the real gems to find are things like Mandrake + Arcane Lore.
There is, of course, not a lot left to find these days... but it still happens.

Talking about the Magician, that is the one class where I could not really come up with anything notable so far. Unboosted traps become rather weak in later difficulties, a fact that a little burn from EE isn't going to change. If you go melee, Earth has very little to offer, and if you use a staff and spells your only friends are the skills named above.
So this one really looks like a "bit of everything" case. You get a lot of crowd control with confusion, Fragments and the Cory, but that's about it.

So in short, if you need something to "make work", try a Magician.



EDIT: I just realized that posion bomb, weak as it is, is actually a bad example because it could be used to slow. But you get the idea. :)

[BinaryEmp]

Does Ice Shard carry the effects of passive attack boosts like envenom weapon and its synergies? That sounds like a hilarious combination if it does. How about Earth Enchantment? Flaming ice shards that burn your frozen butt off. I'm guessing no.

[Irma2]

No and no. EW is weapon only, as is EE's flat damage. The +% Fire damage of EE does get applied to Shards. But, seeing as Shards do no Fire damage...

[BinaryEmp]

No and no. EW is weapon only, as is EE's flat damage. The +% Fire damage of EE does get applied to Shards. But, seeing as Shards do no Fire damage...

Darn. I suppose it makes sense that envenom WEAPON wouldn't affect spells. I guess I was just being optimistic. As for my stupid earth enchantment idea... Does burn damage get boosted by % increases in fire damage like volativity?

[Irma2]

Nope.

[mothwentbad]

Hmmmm... I might have to rethink my Avenger. I keep hearing that EE gets obsolete later on, even with INT bonuses... unless you get gear with massive +fire damage. I'm hoping that Detonate + EE will be good for crowds, but I don't really know yet, do I? I'm skipping the Core Dweller just because it's not what I had in mind for the character, though I'm well aware that they're supposed to be well worth the points.

The first 10 levels or so were pretty breezy, but getting closer to level 20, the weapon damage is catching up with the fire damage, whereas it used to be negligible. I sort of wonder how far I'm going to keep going with the EE build, if everything else keeps growing out of proportion with the fire damage.

I think I don't really understand how to play rogue, so I haven't started one yet. I might eventually, but I have other characters still to level. Rogue + anything would probably be hard for me.

[Violos]

Does Ice Shard carry the effects of passive attack boosts like envenom weapon and its synergies?
No.
Knives do, though. So instead of adding posion to the ice shards, you can add ice to the poisoned shards. :)
That is the one real synergy I found for the Sorcerer, because Storm is good at adding and boosting element damage on weapons.

- As opposed to Earth. The burn is rather weak, doesn't stack, and is not increased by +%fire.


Though obviosuly I'm not talking about level 20 here.
Whether a build is decent usually starts to show about halfway through the game, meaning halfway through epic. - Which is true in more ways than one if that build relies on reducing cooldown. :razz:

[mothwentbad]

Well, with crowds, it's ok if burn doesn't stack because you can just rotate targets. But with bosses... yeah, I kind of wish the burn were more spammable. But assuming 6 targets or so, burn and lightening appear to do similar damage. And I'm hoping Detonate + EE will work out... but we'll see. I might try a sorcerer next, though. Having mandrake and spammable damage and reliable multishots. The slowed enemy radius sounds nice too, now that I look at it. 100% chance to pass through enemies, too. I should've really paid attention before starting... oh well.

[Thunderchief]

My first character was Magician. After I killed Typhon I thought I was doing really well. But then I built a diviner and a ranger and the difference is very noticeable.

With my magician I have focused mostly on the earth skills (strong focus on CD and orb) with only a few points in rogue skills to unlock them. The rogue side of my character is mostly used to clean up spare mobs that my orb might have missed. I have avoided the traps and bombs completely. I have the orb on RMB and I am too lazy to click another button to use something else I guess :) Placing points there would just mean less points in earth mastery stuff.

Gear wise I am built up like a rogue rather than caster though I don't have a strong focus on dex which is about balanced with my int. Strangely at 3:2:2 str:dex:int my strength is my highest stat for high armor gear.

As you can see the build is all over the place which is why I have stopped playing the character for now.

Since I have ignored the rogue side of things up until now, I have created a rogue character as placeholder and dumping any nice rogue gear I find in his inventory. At some point I'll play rogue properly and explore all the skills. Not sure what second mastery should be for a rogue focused character. Maybe Defence for STR/DEX, shield stuff, big HP and armor handling?

[Violos]

Rogue is an interesting mastery to combine others with. While you always want Mandrake, the selection of other skills often differs.

A brawling Corsair can make great use of Flash Powder, for example, while standing in the fray. And calculated strike.
Hunters and Warriors have other primary attacks, but love Lethal Strike and sometimes Blade Honing.
And chars built around Traps or Throwing Knives become classes of their own.

It just doesn't combine well with Earth.



And I'm hoping Detonate + EE will work out..
It won't, trust me. And even if it was halfway decent with EE, having to stand next to your Lure kinda defeats the purpose.

If you want to do fire damage as an Avenger, go fire spells + SP (+ CotH against beasts).
Otherwise, forget about fire and rain arrows on the crowds your Cory herds.

[mothwentbad]

Well, you can untrain as many skills as you'd like if you have the cash, yeah? I think I'm going to file your advice for now and come back later if I'm not having fun anymore...

[Violos]

Sure. But one of those builds requires you to focus on int, the other strength. - Which you cannot untrain.
That is the one decision, besides class, which you should make in advance.

[Phantasy_snot]

. I would consider to look out for Theurgist (Spirit) as I've had a bad past with this pointless mastery.
How is this one bad? read pwning with spirit by poinas. Play it and you will come to the conclusion that spirit is far from pointless

[BrigandPwnage]

I said, I have had a bad past with this mastery. Can you not read? Besides, its my opinion. I live on my record, live on your own. Besides, I started another char today. Gonna make it a Warlock (Rogue, Spirit). Gonna give it another chance.
Name: Dead_Venom. Couldn't come up with anything else besides Ash. I mean, that sounds like a Pyromancer's name. Am I right or am I right?

[mothwentbad]

I would consider to look out for Theurgist (Spirit) as I've had a bad past with this pointless mastery.

http://www.barbarabushfoundation.com/atf/cf/%7BB84A3540-0A3E-44D6-BFF8-13B47E8702AF%7D/Celebration%20of%20Reading%20Houston%20logo.jpg

[BrigandPwnage]

????

[mothwentbad]

Ok, to be serious for a minute, it was unfair of you to criticize Phantasy_snot for not being able to read when what you typed originally could easily be taken to mean that you considered Spirit Mastery to be totally useless all around. And even if P_S had been at fault, it wouldn't have been necessary to insult his or her literacy.

[BinaryEmp]

Theurgist is far from worthless, though unless you know what you are doing, it can be tricky to specialize in. Sticking Deathchill Aura and its tree on a warrior or defender (provided you have the fanpatch) is pretty abusive. Though I have found that since Dream was introduced, Spirit seems to have been kicked to the curb in Dream's favor as a secondary combat mastery, at least from my observation of all the Templars, Haruspexes, and Harbingers in the servers.

[Phantasy_snot]

BP(seems coincedental that this is the name of British Peteroleum) you have absolutely no right at ALL to critizize my literecy. I know you have had a bad past with Spirit, but this doesnt make the mastery pointless. I have had a bad past with HARUSPEXES and does that make them pointless? No! Anyway, how and why would you sign up on a forum if you couldn't read? @moth lol and its a he

[BrigandPwnage]

Ok, to be serious for a minute, it was unfair of you to criticize Phantasy_snot for not being able to read when what you typed originally could easily be taken to mean that you considered Spirit Mastery to be totally useless all around. And even if P_S had been at fault, it wouldn't have been necessary to insult his or her literacy.

I know. Sorry P_S

-BP

[mothwentbad]

I still don't know what someone would do with an elementalist. I can only come up with a stormcaller with a core dweller, or a pyromancer with a wisp, squall, and spell breaker (and maybe some stun and slow for good measure). It seems kind of a frail character in any case. The thunderball stuns a little better than the orb, but I don't know if it's worth all the necessary points.

I'd probably go with "stormcaller with a core dweller" rather than trying to do fire damage. By the time you get good crowd control on the storm side, you've spent half the points you'd have to spend to get damage anyway...

It sounds like summoner would be easier, with the extra meat shields, the refresh, the heart of oak, and the plague. You might not do *quite* as much raw damage (susceptibility vs. squall + wisp), but there seem to be more ways to support an Earth build here.

Is Earth with Storm for crowd control doable, though?

[Violos]

Elementalist is very strong offensively. Earth boosts fire a lot, while Wisp and Squall help all elements, so you can do insane fire damage. However, you really need some -recharge later on because you are relying mostly on spells.
Your defenses are in fact limited to short or unreliable stuns and Stoneform, and you are frail, so you really rely more on killing things before they reach you (i.e., while they are still busy with the Dweller).
Crowd control... not so much.

[BinaryEmp]

^^ My elementalist was very good at dying. To me, Earth and Storm are essentially 2 sides of 2 different coins. They both do what they meant to: damaging the crap out of everything. That does not leave a lot for variation if you take them both at the same time.

The best thing I could think of at the time with mine, was to maximize eruption, RoF, stone form, and all of the radius/retaliation damage in both skill trees. I would draw the aggro, throw down eruption, then hide in stone form while everything around me burned to a crisp. It eventually got to where I wasn't killing them in time before stone form ended, though, and I started getting my butt kicked. I usually take a couple masteries, try to find the worst possible skill combo, and make it work. that didn't

[BrigandPwnage]

[QUOTE=mothwentbad;408503]I still don't know what someone would do with an elementalist.[QUOTE]

I started playing with an Elementalist Saturday and I'm already in Egypt. I'm pwning with this mastery. Though, I knid of can see why you'd say that, mothwentbad. Elementalists consist on elemental damage an/or resists. Thou, combining the character with a different DPS (lightning does more than fire) may increase or decrease its stats. My Elementalist (Ginger( IDK why I named her that. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but then I remember my TQ Defiler doesn't work on regular TQ so I couldn't change it unless I made up another char)) made it to Thebes in two days, thus concluding this skill may raise the DPS of average skills. Thats all I have to say.

[mothwentbad]

Hmmmm. Well, we'll see how it goes in Epic/Legendary, I guess. Act I isn't hard, and Act II just feels like a continuation of Act I, but parts of Act III were a lot harder for me; mostly, enemies can actually stun and then kill you for the first time. Maybe an extra point or two for the Core Dweller will make up for that. I don't know.

[Violos]

You do that.
Normal, at least the first three acts, is a joke with any Earth char.

[Irma2]

Yeah. I never managed to kill an Earth toon in Normal. Avenger, Magician, Elementalist, Juggie, BMage, 3 Evokers, Summoner, Conjurer, all sailed through. There is something about lobbing a VO onto mobs from afar, and then casting Eruption underneath them just before it lands, that kinda takes the wind out of their sails. :p

[mothwentbad]

Hmmm. Normal I and II were a joke for my EE Avenger (I know, I know), but Act III was sort of hard near the end. I had some trouble with stun especially in Act III, and those big dragons were hard. Act III for me alternated between paper enemies (ichtians, for example) and dangerous foes.

Act IV seems kind of like the harder parts of Act III, but I've only just gotten past the Gray Sisters.

I kind of hope the health bonus to Lure makes a big difference in Epic, and that it doesn't quickly become one-hit or two-hit fodder all over again. Maybe someone who's actually tried can say more.

Just because I'm insane, I'm planning to pump Detonate, probably sometime around early Epic. I've discovered that you get a little more help from them if you cue up two of them just offscreen before drawing aggro. They have to recover their mana from their provoke before they die if you want them to explode, and it can be hard to keep them alive long enough for that in normal.

If detonate works out, I'll stop pumping STR beyond equipment requirements, and look for +fire damage and +skill gear, as well as IAS and slow enemy attack gear. And then I'll make a big forum post about how everyone said it couldn't be done. (If it works out. :-P )

Worst case scenario, I have a lot of stuff in my box to show for all my work on a broken character.

[Irma2]

ML never dies in the higher difficulties, so Detonate is a complete waste of time.

If you're playing a bow Avenger, just continue to pump Str and Dex, let Hunting do its thing and use Earth just for the game's second-best tank and Heat Shield, along with some +% Damage from Brimstone. VO as well if you want some stun and Eruption to do damage to mobs with less HP.

Or you could go Fire archer (mage with a bow) but I have no idea how that plays.

[mothwentbad]

ML never dies in the higher difficulties, so Detonate is a complete waste of time.

If you're playing a bow Avenger, just continue to pump Str and Dex, let Hunting do its thing and use Earth just for the game's second-best tank and Heat Shield, along with some +% Damage from Brimstone. VO as well if you want some stun and Eruption to do damage to mobs with less HP.

Or you could go Fire archer (mage with a bow) but I have no idea how that plays.

If it's not dying enough, I can take Lure down to one point... or maybe it's still nigh-immortal? I need points for provoke radius anyway, I think. Anyway, I want them to die occasionally, but not too often. Say, half or a third as often as I can cast them. The idea is to plink away at them while things explode occasionally. Detonate is more likely to hit stuff if there's a big crowd, but they're also more likely to die in the first place when I'm swamped, so it's fine as long as they're not getting shredded like paper, I hope.

I hear Fire Archer is either undoable or at least very equipment-dependent (base increase is a joke, and burn damage isn't wonderful either).

I'm skipping Core Dweller simply because it doesn't match the image of an Avenger that I have in my mind as an archetype - a furiously fast spear-and-bow user who drops exploding trap lures, not some fire golem summoner. The lure is getting EE and Flush Out, and doing Core Dweller duties.

8 or 10 levels from now, I plan to look like this:

http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Avenger&master1=7&master2=1&sa=7&m1=32-0-1-6-1-1-1-0-1-0-3-1-1-0-1-1-1-12-6-0-1-0&m2=32-12-0-8-1-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-12-0-0

Tankless with normal lures in Act 4 is a little painful, though. I have a decent spear with a lot of slow on it, and a nice artifact, though. I just have to make it. :-P

[mothwentbad]

I may have too much STR already for a really good Detonator build... I can't resist getting better armor and spears, though, because the lures get absolutely shredded in the second half of normal. The STR helps bow and spear damage along with Brimstone anyway, but I might not have the ultimate "it can be done" testimonial at the end of it all at this rate, unless I unspend the attribute points with TQ Defiler, which is a -15% bragging rights penalty.

[Irma2]

Even with one point, ML is almost unkillable in Legendary, heh. Morgan will kill it in SP, and Typhon/Barmanu/Yaoguai probably will too. Trash mobs? Not a chance in hell.

Besides, your +skills will probably boost it to 5. You could do without +skills, but then everything else suffers.

I preferred having Cory along with my Avenger. ML becomes a real pain to cast for every mob, and Cory is like a moving ML in Legendary anyway, very difficult to kill.

[mothwentbad]

That's really annoying and the complete opposite of ML in normal. TQ is just messing with my head now. I guess I'll find out firsthand eventually.

I guess I can move the points over to eruption when I get to legendary and just imagine to myself that I'm recasting lures. X-P

[Irma2]

Yeah, ML and Nightmare are much the same: rubbish in Normal, invincible in Legendary. The key is not their HP but the resists they get in each new difficulty level. Almost nothing can hurt them. For most of my Dream builds, my one-point NM can tank bosses that would slaughter my toon if he/she had to take the same number of hits as the NM.

[mothwentbad]

I can probably look this up, but what exactly happens to pet HP/resistance in epic/legendary?

That sounds kind of absurd, overall. It would be nice if the fan group actually finished the balance patch...

[Irma2]

Well, according to apoc80, this is what Nightmare gets in Legendary:

physical - 90%
piercing - 110%
fire - 75%
cold - 75%
lightning - 75%
poison - 130%
vitality - 25%
sleep - 100%
stun - 100%
trap - 100%
freeze - 100%
petrify - 100%
disruption - 30%
life leech - 30%
energy leech - 30%
bleeding - 30%

Add 20% damage absorption from ToC on top of that...

[mothwentbad]

I just remembered something - the lure has a 30-second lifespan anyway, and it *will* explode when the timer runs out. Whether battles are supposed to last over 30 seconds is another story, but detonate *could* be used in legendary even if lures were to literally take no damage ever.

Anyway, back to the main topic - Elementalist sounds tricky! It sounds like the best strategy is to get another tank on multiplayer, like maybe a corsair or something.

[johnjov]

Well, according to apoc80, this is what Nightmare gets in Legendary:

physical - 90%
piercing - 110%
fire - 75%
cold - 75%
lightning - 75%
poison - 130%
vitality - 25%
sleep - 100%
stun - 100%
trap - 100%
freeze - 100%
petrify - 100%
disruption - 30%
life leech - 30%
energy leech - 30%
bleeding - 30%

Add 20% damage absorption from ToC on top of that...

Thanks Irma! that was a superb eye-opener for a one-point NM.....guess it may have a hard time against Typhon & Hades with the low life leech & vitality resists

[Phantasy_snot]

Yeah. I never managed to kill an Earth toon in Normal.
i wish the same could be said for my battlemage.

[vothros]

For me the most weak class is the Elementalist. I tried everything on that character and it was so weak....was dying easily.All the other classes are stronger,in my opinion.

[mothwentbad]

Hmmmm. Yeah, elementalist does sound hard. How about -recharge and keeping everything stunned? And a core dweller for extra safety... I don't know, it probably won't work on bosses, but maybe those can be frozen? I haven't tried.

I think Thunderball goes up to 5 seconds or something, so maybe that'd be the one to spam.

[Irma2]

Heh, my Elementalist just finished Epic yesterday. Only one death from reflect damage, and one of the most awesome toons I've built. Great for running 3X Typhon too.

You don't need any -recharge or stunning or whatever. Like all Earth casters, just send the CD ahead of you then cast VO and/or Eruption on it. Pick up loot and continue to the next mob. I haven't encountered anything that has given me the slightest problems yet. And that includes bumping into three Epic Dactyls in Hades' Palace.

[claudius]

My first character was an illusionist. With all those pets bosses were hard once they owned my pets. Traps were the equalizer until legendary when the damage crapped out. Oh and with maxed out pets you can keep a few up by using instill to recast. I was going to give up until I read about a pure nature who beat the game. It was a fun build to play as I used about 7 skills: healing, knives, lethal strike, plague, briar patch or whatever, left clicks. Well less than seven. edit: flashpowder, traps. I used potions from the alternate keys E and R I think haha..buffs were on the second switch of keys and believe me I ran fast when debuffed!

My hades fight took 20+ minutes counting deaths.

I think rogue is the worst mastery. The only thing it has to offer really is mandrake. It can't do any damage once poison/traps crap out. Lethal strike is great for heros, but bosses no. Hunting/Dream/Spirit (harrowing) are the strongest since they can make a rogue kill something fast.