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Gorthaur
09-27-2009, 05:07 AM
Hi, everyone!
This is my first post in this forum - I've played TQ through and through before, but it is Lilith mod, that finally encouraged me to register here. :)
First of all I want to give my thanks to the man that created this awesome game! Yes, I'm referring to Lilith as a game rather than a simple mod, due to its length and complexity. It's hard to believe that a one man could make this alone... IMO, mostal's skill in game design is almost equal (if not superior) to those folks in Ironlore.
Now praising part is over, let's rant a bit...
I've just finished Lilith+Masteries on Normal and although I've enjoyed the game and liked it a lot there are some small things that almost ruined all the fun.
First of all - the insane mazes (asylum level, anthill and several others) - virtually unplayable without help - i literally had to open lilithpedia and Alt+Tab back and forth... In asylum you don't even have proper in-game mapping of the floor you're in! In just shows one level map, while there are two (or even more) of them...
Second - the bosses. And it's not even the quantity. I'ts the lack of balance, exactly the thing TQ suffered from, like side-quest bosses are far more dangerous and deadly than final ones. For instance, i've played as archer and all was fine until i've hit into Gos the Forbidden. IMO, he should be called "OMFGos the Forbidden for Archers" or something...
Seriously, what is the point of creating the boss with 100% immunity to arrows? Some warning could have really helped... My archer was kicked in the butt when first run in him in catacombs. And then died again, trying to melee him (obviously)... Maybe mostal just hates archers, he doesn't like them in general? It's because of Battle of Agincourt and British longbowmen, no? (IIRC, mostal is from France) :lol:
But all this is nothing compared to Sashemi in Sheol. OMG, this guy really screwed the whole game for me. :mad:
This was the time, when my archer got his sorry a** handed to him on the plate... My char was lvl 48 Bombardier (archery+alchemy). This build is very powerful (opposite to the pathetic p-o-s Forester which i was literally forced to edit in mid-game) and i've got little problems with this char, until i've got there. Sashemi insta-kills my archer with his wide-range wave attack, and when i'm trying to dodge this wave, he instantly closes in and with ONE swing (about 0.5 sec) takes half of char's HP away. I've got maxed elemental resistances and about 50% in piercing res (and the quest mirror, obviously). Scrolls, potions, skills, pets - nothing helps, he whacks me in matter of seconds... And this was on Fast Lilith difficulty - I just cannot imagine what he is like on Infinite of Insane... The final boss doesn't even qualify as a joke compared with this guy.
Oh, if you've thought that is the end of my "dance macabre" with Lilith, you are wrong! :) On top of all that the game crashed like 5 (!) times during Sashemi quest, forcing me to shout every possible and impossible curse I know, because in Sheol not only mobs and bosses are re-spawning, but you also have to re-unveil all the map of entire Sheol from the beginning... And when I finally got to Sahemi... you know what happened... That was it - I had to cheat and use defiler, my patience was over. :knockout:
Compared to this all other problems are just small nitpicks (e.g. lack of space for items+no access to TQvault, etc.). Other things, like unbalanced Masteries (pathetically weak creatures from Bestiary for instance) are also an issue, but they obviously have to be referred to the Masteries mod...
And don't get me wrong - I understand, that end of the game has to be hard and challenging, and both bosses (Gos and Sashemi) are not relevant to finish the game, but still I think it's too much. Insta-killing 100% immune to attack bosses + crashes and glitches = unplayable game... And this is what saddens me, because i think in Lilith mostal was able to mold a "diablo-style" gameplay into TQ, and that is very impressive. It just small flaws, which are ruining the game for me...

mostal
09-27-2009, 04:11 PM
Hi Gorthaur,

Thank you for your words about Lilith, thanks to post here for the first time for her :razz:

You say many right things and I understand you but the truth is beyond... ;)

Well, about mazes maps. Lilith was designed to be played and played many times. As TQ is not able to generate random map so I believed it was a good way to keep a part of mystery for these maps and can be play again without too much linearity. As you certainly noticed Lilith is not too much linear and mazes are also in this mind.
But I understand what you say and may be theses mazes can be more simple but I wanted to keep the player in a real situation and not give him the solution too easily

Be sure if you play again Lilith, many many things will be more clear for you and you will enjoy twice this game. In fact, more you'll play Lilith more you'll discover new things and love it more I think. All guys who are playing Lilith many times are more and more happy with the game :)

About Gos, well... I know this guy is very rough but I didn't know it was immunized against arrows. In fact is a bug and a challenge too. I read many tricks to beat him as to keep the Shift key pressed when you fire your arrows.
In fact his gravity center is below the floor so when you try to aim him you can't touch him but if you aim above his position you will hit.
Above this trick, more you know Lilith more you know if you are ready or not to make some quest. Lilith is really an HnS but there is a RPG dimension inside her. You have to make some choices, you have to be prudent before to go somewhere and sometimes you can missed some quest. This is a kind of things more closer than a RPG than a traditional HnS. Anyway, as I said above, more you play Lilith more you will control the game.

About Sashimi I don't really understand, this Boss is almost unbeatable but if you use the mirror he is almost easy to beat. In some case that doesn't work, so if you are strong enough to beat him go, or not.

About Crashes It is a very very bad situation. Some found a good trick to avoid many crashed in the Forbidden Mountain for example : Leave the full screen for a windowed mode :)

Lilith is not perfect and will worth a new version but it is a work now bigger than me. Many players like you was impressed about the amount of work, but be sure you are far from the truth. It is, it was really a Titan work. And even now, a new version, even for littles things is a hard work for a full release (DC, Languages, Masteries, etc...).

Anyway Lilith 1.1 is totally, fully, completely playable all along the game, in all situation in every fights and quests and in all difficulties. In Normal, Epic and Legendary but it is playable with all the difficulties from the Difficulty Changer.
In Self Drop you can play until Insane Lilith.
For Max insane Lilith you'll certainly need your vault in add with the Self Drop.
I don't talk about Infinite Lilith, too much survival mode but I think about the two special DC Max Heroic Extra Boss Lilith and Max Insane Extra Boss Lilith for hardcore gamer with a nice vault, these two last difficulties are enormous (as much as fun too) and absolutely playable until the end with any classes.

I hope you'll give another try to Lilith in Epic or from Normal with a new characters, you'll see, many things will be familiar and you should find new things that you didn't noticed before. Things will be natural for you even if Lilith will be always a challenge :headbang:

Gorthaur
09-28-2009, 02:29 PM
Hi mostal,
Thank you for the reply.
Regarding Gos - there are some treads and posts in this forum, where people complain about Gos's "100% resistance to projectiles", which is kind of weird, because I was able to kill him throwing poisonous potions (after switching form Bestiary to Alchemy)... I guess they are not considered as "projectiles", so this means only arrows.
About Sashemi, yes I haven't figured out how to beat him without cheats... I had the quest mirror in the inventory at that time and my char was at 48th level (he wasn't uber-strong, but he had no problems with any boss in the game whatsoever, except Gos). Nevertheless, Sashimi was smashing my archer with 1-2 hits to shreds. And that is on Fast... I wonder what he is like on Insane Lilith... :)
I've got rid of that nasty game-crashing glitch though. I think it was caused by the poisonous worm in Sheol (called Mother of Vomit or something like that) or/and his special attack - game was just crashing on desktop... it was never the same place or the same worm, just in random places and time. And all crashes happened only after I've cleared almost all Sheol and died by the hands of the Death (my mistake), just after re-starting from nearest rebirth point... before that the worms didn't caused any crashes.
I've never had any bug like that in TQ/TQIT before, all Lilith levels except Sheol went very smooth and fast (again, it is amazing job, making the game with so small amount of bugs, considering the limited resources you have in your disposal). Switching off some graphic effects solved the problem (at least i hope so).
Regarding Epic/Legendary Lilith - yes, I think that I have little choice there. It is definitely hard to return to TQIT after a meeting with Lilith. :)

jiaco
09-28-2009, 03:08 PM
In case this was your problem, for some reason (??) you need to have Lilith quest items in your main inventory for them to work (was your mirror in the main inventory or a right-side sack?).

With respect to Lilith being a bit more crash-happy than Vanilla TQ, Munderbunny actually made an interesting point about how the maps are designed in the regular game to prep loading of areas that you will visit next as you meander along the path. In Lilith, there are areas that load huge regions of scenery (Cemetery, Asteria Cliffs, and many others) which while beautiful, are probably leading to issues on lower-end computers. While I had one massive Lilith crash and occasionally felt the need to reboot preemptively, I never had any issues in Sheol.

Gorthaur
09-29-2009, 11:19 AM
:errf:
Hmm... That could be the case actually, if the placement of the quest item (bag or main inventory) is so important. I haven't realized that before... Got to check it next time when in Sheol. Thanks for the tip, jiaco!
Regarding loading issues - well, I don't have much to say there... It was sure a bit of surprise for me, when all these huge, crowded maps (including those mentioned by you) went on fast and smooth on max. graphical settings without any problem and then just few overgrown worms made such a mess (and what is real mystery - why it happened only after first re-birth)... IIRC, Sheol does not have so much mobs and NPCs, as does Citadel with all the surroundings, for example...