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veggieboy
08-29-2009, 01:12 PM
I quote this right off of the official website:



The Current Situation

Making sure every American has access to high quality health care is one of the most important challenges of our time. The number of uninsured Americans is growing, premiums are skyrocketing, and more people are being denied coverage every day. A moral imperative by any measure, a better system is also essential to rebuilding our economy -- we want to make health insurance work for people and businesses, not just insurance and drug companies.
The Solution

*Reform the health care system:

We will take steps to reform our system by expanding coverage, improving quality, lowering costs, honoring patient choice and holding insurance companies accountable.

*Promote scientific and technological advancements:

We are committed to putting responsible science and technological innovation ahead of ideology when it comes to medical research. We believe in the enormous capacity of American ingenuity to find cures for diseases that continue to extinguish too many lives and cause too much suffering every year.

*Improve preventative care:

In order to keep our people healthy and provide more efficient treatment we need to promote smart preventative care, like cancer screenings and better nutrition, and make critical investments in electronic health records, technology that can reduce errors while ensuring privacy and saving lives.


There are like 47 million people in the United States who are uninsured.

I just feel like as an Americans we have the right to health insurance no matter the circumstances. What about the Children in families who don't have it?

Edit- I'll write more, just feeling lazy.

veggieboy
08-30-2009, 09:08 PM
I'm just curious of what your guy's views are on this subject.

I am also seeing lots and lots of opposition towards it. This is a major topic that constantly frequents the news.

ASYLUM101
08-30-2009, 10:23 PM
I don't like it, and I don't like the current health care system. Currently, hospitals and clinics are overstuffed and waiting lines are ridiculously long. now if we have, what, 47 MILLION people in addition... can you imagine the waits then? Canada has free health care, and it doesn't work. Look it up on youtube, on google, whatever, it may just change your opinion on free health care.

fathersquid
08-31-2009, 12:38 AM
Canada has free health care, and it doesn't work.

What do you mean? I need to know... I live here (in Canada) and now I may be in some unknown trouble, because my free health care isn't working and no one has told me! Dang - I may be terminally ill and spreading diseases and no one can take care of me... a virtual Typhoid Mary or some sort.... I feel faint... a chill is coming on... get me a doctor... just don't make me pay for it...

Seriously though, how does it not work?

ward_rb
08-31-2009, 01:23 AM
Seriously though, how does it not work?

im not sure, but our (American) media says it doesnt, so it must be true. :D


personally, i think the health care reform is a great move. yes, there will be longer waits for walk-in patients at hospitals, and that will suck. but many people who otherwise would have to suffer because they cant afford hospital bills can now get treatment and live better lives.



heres my fave discussion on this topic so far (<3 the daily show):
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-20-2009/betsy-mccaughey-pt--1
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-20-2009/betsy-mccaughey-pt--2
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-20-2009/exclusive---betsy-mccaughey-extended-interview-pt--1
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-20-2009/exclusive---betsy-mccaughey-extended-interview-pt--2

jabarto
08-31-2009, 01:56 AM
Obama's healthcare plan is pretty much crap. It's just an insurance company bailout that he passed through so he could claim he got something done. What we really need is socialized medicine but that will never happen as long as lobbying groups continue to shovel money into the pockest of Republicans and Democrats alike.

ward_rb
08-31-2009, 02:31 AM
Obama's healthcare plan is pretty much crap. It's just an insurance company bailout that he passed through so he could claim he got something done.

i would really like you to explain this, because im just not seeing it.

jabarto
08-31-2009, 04:00 AM
i would really like you to explain this, because im just not seeing it.

The bill, last I checked, requires everyone to buy insurance, but doesn't do anything to regulate the prices. In other words, they'd have to buy it at the prices that the insurance companies stipulate.

ASYLUM101
08-31-2009, 07:52 AM
What do you mean? I need to know... I live here (in Canada) and now I may be in some unknown trouble, because my free health care isn't working and no one has told me! Dang - I may be terminally ill and spreading diseases and no one can take care of me... a virtual Typhoid Mary or some sort.... I feel faint... a chill is coming on... get me a doctor... just don't make me pay for it...

Seriously though, how does it not work?

Har har, I'm not down talking Canada's health care system, it's just I've seen a few videos on youtube about the system there and it doesn't seem like an upgrade from our current system.

I don't know what kind of reform we need, but I think it needs to be something more drastic than free health care. I don't know if some of you guys have known this or not, but the cure to cancer has been "found", but not purchased because the doctors and hospitals make HUGE bucks on cancer treatments. That's just not right, monopolize on other people's suffering? Gross.

fathersquid
08-31-2009, 09:52 AM
I don't know if some of you guys have known this or not, but the cure to cancer has been "found", but not purchased because the doctors and hospitals make HUGE bucks on cancer treatments. That's just not right, monopolize on other people's suffering? Gross.

Don't tell me... it's kept in Area 51 in the trunk of a car than runs perpetually on water and is driven by the greys...
Seriously, what?!? I need to know more about this one - I've done a biology degree, specializing in microbiology, minored in chemistry and food science, read science magazines every month, and teach science classes to high school aged kids - and not once have I ever come across the cure to cancer being found. Please give me more info!

As for the Canadian health care system, there are issues - as there are with any government run system. On the whole however, it seems to be working fine - at least from my perspective as a user. A brief rundown of how it works... everyone gets the treatment they need, billing is done by the hospitals and doctors directly to the government who pay the health care practitioners based on pre-determined fees and schedules. Now the problem comes (as it does with so many government services - or services we take for granted for that matter) with money. People get greedy. Or the government argues over what is considered essential health care.

A doctor decides he is worth more than the government is willing to pay. He can decide to go into private practice where he can set his own fees and charge much more than the government would pay him. It's good for the doctor, but it severely limits who will come see him - typically only the wealthy can afford these rates, and you end up with a two-tier system where the wealthy get "better" (?) treatment. Better in the sense that they may have more access to the doctor at all times during there treatment. Other problems:
It takes a doctor out of the public system - this creates a shortage of trained doctors which may in turn create waits, travel to see specialists, etc. There are many cases in Canada where doctors who get their training, and start their careers in this country, eventually resign / quit and leave for the more affluent pastures of their American neighbours to the south. Entire provinces have shortages of qualified nurses because American recruiters come to the nursing schools and offer salaries and bonuses that cannot be matched by the Canadian governments. As such, those students who really have no ties to the country often leave. It makes it harder to recruit people in Canada. The hardest hit areas are the rural and isolated areas - and as at least 75% of Canada's population lives within 100 miles of the US border, that leaves an awful lot of the second largest country in the world to provide an adequate working health care system.
For instance, three houses from me lives a nurse. He has a job, but not in our city. Instead, He is flown almost 1500 miles north to a northern community where he works for 4 weeks at a time. He then is flown home for three weeks, then the cycle repeats. He has no intention of moving north, but because the government cannot find anyone to go to this northern community, their only option is to assume the extra costs associated with his travel, housing, etc. As well, because he works north of a certain latitude, he qualifies for bonuses for isolation and northern work (attempts to get workers to go to these places). As such, his salary is quite a bit more than a similar nurse who works in our city.

It also is problematic when experimental treatments arise, or controversial treatments. The government does not like putting money into new experimental treatments, which are often more costly than already accepted treatments. This often comes up with diseases such as cancers (although now that the cure is found, I'm sure this will change...) or other illnesses. My father-in-law has macular degeneration ( a degenerative disease of the blood vessels in the eyes which will eventually create blindness if untreated). When he was diagnosed, the doctors told him that he would eventually be blind, and that they could only slow the progress of the condition. Naturally, he went to other doctors for a second opinion. At a private clinic he was told he would be blind in four months if he didn't pay $20,000 for laser surgery on an eye (per eye / $40,000 total). Another specialist told him of drugs that would stop the degeneration inside his eye, or at least slow it down. This option was the accepted treatment by the government, and would be totally covered by them. This is the option that he went with. Two years later he is still not blind, although his condition has not entirely stopped either. He goes every six months to see if there has been much progression, or if they have managed to halt the degeneration of his eyes. Interestingly enough, there have been a number of new treatments discovered for this disease since he has started his treatment - some drugs are proclaimed to be working miracles, but they are not approved yet in Canada and no studies / testing have been done. These drugs would cost a couple thousand per injection and you need several injections a year. The government will not spring for these injections, and as such, this treatment remains unexplored unless you have the money to travel some specialist who has access and the ability to administer these treatments.

The same situation arises with a treatment such as abortion. The nature of the treatment itself is such a controversial one, that although the government will perform abortions, there is often a stigma and people are afraid of backlash, or being seen by people in the community who work in their local hospitals, etc. As such, private abortion clinics have arisen which perform such a service for added cost, but provide a level of security and privacy which may not be obtained in a public system.

Other issues with the health care system can include the changing dynamic of the population. Like many western countries, Canada is one with an aging population. This is creating a strain on a system that was not designed for such a system. There is a lack of long-term care facilities, or palliative care facilities. There are a lack of trained professionals who know the specific needs of the elderly and how to care for them. The system runs out of beds, nurses, etc as it is required to take care of more and more seniors, which often rely on government assistance since they may not have income, or be living on pensions, etc. This will continue for a while until the baby boomer generation has passed and things level off again. However, many countries are facing this dilemma - Japan is facing such a bad situation with the number of elderly as compared to the rest of the population they are even looking to find robotic workers to work in old-aged homes.

Many Canadians also have health care insurance. This is provided through your work in most cases where a portion of your salary goes directly into an insurance plan that covers medical costs associated with lets say having prescriptions filled at the pharmacy, or buying syringes if you are a diabetic, or even covering the cost of an ambulance. These insurance plans are often things you can opt out of, but most working Canadians have them because it covers minor incidentals or the un-'essentials' that the government will not cover. These plans often extend to cover dental services as well which are not often considered to be medical expenses. If you do not have dental insurance, you have to pay for your dentist visits.

This also brings up the case of such procedures as cosmetic surgery. This is one of the most lucrative and fastest growing fields of medicine in the world as more and more people are having botox injections, tummy tucks, etc. In Canada, these are not considered essential services and as such you have surgeons or plastic surgeons leaving the public system where they may do reconstructive work, to go into private practice providing facelifts for those who are afraid to grow old and willing to pay big money to stop it. This again creates a shortage of qualified professionals for the public system as they follow the money.

So is the system perfect? No, not by a long shot. But if you look at it objectively, it works extremely well. Yesterday, Bill Clinton gave a speech in Ontario, that was his most attended speech in Canada ever. The main topic of his speech was praise for the Canadian health care system. You may also want to check out Michael Moore's "Sicko" movie which looks at health care in the Us, versus other countries such as Canada, the UK, and Cuba. While it does use sarcasm and other tactics to make the point, it does point out some of the flaws and benefits of systems around the world. I guess in the end it comes down to the fact that I feel pretty secure with the knowledge that if I was to come down with swine flu tomorrow I'd be covered, and treated. (As I said in another post, the government of Canada has already made steps to vaccinate the entire population of the country against swine flu). If my wife was to have a bay tomorrow, we are covered and everything we need for her safety and the babies, would be covered - (My brother had a baby on August 20, the baby had a congenital heart defect, but within days, open heart surgery was performed and the heart problem corrected - all covered by the health care system). If I was in a traffic accident, my treatment and recovery time would be covered (although I may have to may for the ambulance ride). If I have to take insulin for the rest of my life, my insulin costs are covered (at least up to 80%, but my wife can cover the rest on her health plan). All in all, I feel pretty secure, and provided for with regards to health care. I for one would hate to see it change. From my point of view, the problems that exist within the system are not related to the fact that universal health care is provided to the masses, but capitalism and greed are getting into the mix and when money is involved, problems follow.

ward_rb
09-01-2009, 11:09 PM
The bill, last I checked, requires everyone to buy insurance, but doesn't do anything to regulate the prices. In other words, they'd have to buy it at the prices that the insurance companies stipulate.

everything i have read about the bill says that the government is trying to regulate prices, and no one is going to be forced to buy insurance. if you cant afford it, thats when you get on the governments plan (as far as ive heard it will be free) rather than a private insurance company.

jabarto
12-14-2009, 10:17 PM
I'd like to revive this thread because the senate is gonig to be voting on the House bill before too long. Here's a breakdown of what it does - http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/november/talking-points-on-hr-3962-with-some-comparisons-to-the-senate-reid-bill-in-bold

A few things of particular note:

1. The proposed public option is officially dead - http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_HEALTH_CARE_OVERHAUL?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-12-08-20-16-43. Not that it would have been any good in the first place.

2. Pushing to remove the ban on buying interstate insurance, which will pretty much be the final nail in the coffin for consumers.

3. And, of course, there's that lovely mandate to buy insurance iwhtout any price controls in place.

So this entire thing is a complete and utter ****ball that will hold back the development of UHC in the country by another decade or so. And what's worse is that come 2010, the Republicans will claim this as an example that government doesn't work, take congress and the presidency by storm and the country will shift ever more to the right.

ShadowLAnce
12-15-2009, 05:58 AM
Every Canadian I've met has nothing but praise for their health care system. IMO the internet crap about Canada's health care being ****ty is just propaganda.

jabarto
12-15-2009, 06:16 AM
Every Canadian I've met has nothing but praise for their health care system. IMO the internet crap about Canada's health care being ****ty is just propaganda.

Heh, I've actually heard the NHS or whatever they call it in Canada compared to a younger sibling; you bash it constantly, but God help the fool who tries to seriously hurt it. :lol:

You're pretty much correct, though. Every single industrialized nation except this one has a UHC system, and they all have lower infant mortality rates, higher life expectancies even for the lower classes, and, unlike here, medical bills aren't the leading cause of bankruptcy. Hell, that flat out never happens in those other countries.

I don't think things really got out of hand until Reagan got into office. His perpetuation of the "Welfare Queen" stereotype (which, to set the recored straight, does not and never did exist) actually convinced people that the system would encourage laziness.

Although, on reflection, you can't really heap the whole thing on Reagan. This country has utterly internalized the Protestant work ethic, which pretty much equates to "**** you I got mine". People think that being poor is a result of bad choices or laziness when it's entirely possible that they simply fell on hard times - like, because their insurance company decided it would be too expensive to keep them alive for example. It's been completely ingrained into our culture since the very earliest days of the country.

Honestly, I've long held that if we ccould just get functioning government-run healthcare and unionize more of the workfroce we could get so much done in this country but that'll never happend because that'd be socialism and socialism is bad and adfjldjfkldfjads

ok i'm done

Renevent
12-15-2009, 01:06 PM
Every Canadian I've met has nothing but praise for their health care system. IMO the internet crap about Canada's health care being ****ty is just propaganda.

You know, personal experiences are limited to just that...the people you personally meet which is a very small fraction of Canada's populace.

With that said...

Every single god **** Canadian I have ever met absolutely loves their health system. Every single one of them.

Couple that with the fact they on average pay like 1/2 of what we pay in health care costs and I just have to go WTF are we doing?

ShadowLAnce
12-15-2009, 04:19 PM
Aye, one of my oldest friends lives in Toronto, and he sure as hell speaks his mind about ANYTHING.

But he's not political at all so I have to prod him to talk about anything related to politics. He still raises an eyebrow when I tell him about our system, like people having to go bankrupt because of surgeries, and says "just get surgery here bro".