Crate Entertainment formed by ex-ILE employees

[medierra]

Hey everyone,

I mentioned this in off-topic a while back but I wanted to officially announce the formation of Crate Entertainment by myself and the former Art Director of Iron Lore, Eric Campanella. For those who may not have been here in the early days when I was more active on the forum, I'm Arthur Bruno and I was the Lead Designer at Iron Lore. I started working for Iron Lore back before we got the contract for Titan Quest and were a couple of guys working in a basement with no windows. My company recently acquired the rights to the RPG Iron Lore was starting to pitch before they ran out of capital and were forced to shut down. The game is called Black Legion and, while it has some new exciting features, much of the core gameplay will be similar to Titan Quest; particularly with regards to the skill system and loot... oh yes... sweet, sweet loot. I learned a lot from my experience designing Titan Quest and I am eager to put that knowledge to use creating an even better gameplay experience this time around. Some of our biggest improvements will be a rotatable camera that lets you get closer to the action, visual character customization, action-style melee combat mechanics with satisfying enemy-death animations, shooter-like aiming with ranged weapons, a deeper more interactive world and competitive multiplayer. We expect to release on Xbox360 and PS3 with a port to PC but publishers will have final call on that. I can't say much more about the game at this point but I'll be sure to let you guys know as more information becomes available.

You can read our first major interview with Edge Magazine here: http://www.edge-online.com/features/the-death-and-birth-rpg-developer It talks about forming Crate, the closing of Iron Lore, and gives some details about Black Legion. I hope you will find it interesting.

Also just wanted to give a special thanks to all the people on this forum who have given me positive encouragement over the years and the confidence to embark upon such a challenging venture. I'm very excited about the opportunity to make a great new game for you guys! ; )


-medierra

[Venn]

Fantastic! Hope you the best of best of luck and look forward to any updates towards the project. I'm sure you've convinced everyone at our forums that any game in your alls hands is one worth playing.

Expect our continued support! :headbang:

[yerkyerk]

Lol, I wonder why nobody ever replies to these posts, apparantly only developers, moderators and admins have posting priveledges here :)

[Venn]

Lol, I wonder why nobody ever replies to these posts, apparantly only developers, moderators and admins have posting priveledges here :)

OK, tried changing it so that any registered user can reply to these threads so that if anyone is inclined to give some love they can do so. :happy:

[Poinas]

*Lots of love* <3

[yerkyerk]

Go crate!

[Munderbunny]

:rockon: Sweet loot! :rockon:

[Onewing]

Best of luck to ya, Arthur! I'm happy to see BL still has hope!

<--- Silvey

[psylinx]

Good luck guys!

[ElGrandeLupo]

This is sweet news indeed for my old fan heart Medierra. :D
Sounds fantastic and respect, all the best of luck and support from me. :razz:

[AntarcticSNAKE]

I can't wait!
No, seriously. I can't wait. I'll kill myself.

I hate not knowing when D3 and BL are going ot be released :(

[Kyzar58]

Just recently bought Titan Quest and I think its great! It's good to hear former developers have found a new home and are able to continue to bring us great games.

Also, I thought you might find this interesting if you didn't know it already. Have to heard about the abuse your loyal fans are receiving from Steam/THQ? Many people are still purchasing this game (like me.) But unfortunately if you bought it from steam recently you wont be able to play online. Anyone who has bought the game in the past month or two have received a "invalid cd-key" error while trying to enter or host a game. I understand crap happens and technology doesn't always work, but steams response so far is "we are aware," and that was weeks ago.

Here's a link to the steam forum:
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=271

You'll see the topic called "invalid cd-key" with a 4 star rating, 7,000 views and 100 replies. obviously lots of people want to play this great game online. very sad.

I wish Ironlore was still together, I'm sure you guys could work this out 100x faster.

Thanks guys, goodluck.

note to mods: you can move this post if you don't want it here. Just thought a devs would find it interesting.

[Dokka3]

Based on the quality work performed in Titan Quest and the countless hours of joyful time-sinking for myself, count me as a preorder for a PS3 copy of Black Legion, even without seeing the final release.

Keep up the good work guys!

[medierra]

Thanks for all the good wishes everyone - its been a really tough year to be attempting to launch a new company with the economic upheaval going on in the US but we're doing our best to stick it out.

I'll be sure to let everyone know as soon as there is any exciting news I can share.

-medierra


P.S. I can't understand what the difficulty is in creating valid CD keys for each copy. That's pretty frustrating to hear about. I hope it gets resolved for everyone experiencing the problem!

[Bella]

Best of luck guys! Can't wait to see what your cooking up, I've loved Titan Quest and think you guys ROCK

[Jimbob2k666]

Just wishing good luck like the rest. Myself and a friend have been co-opping TQ and IT for a while. Came to it quite late but it never seems to outdate itself when others release games in this genre.

I'm currently having a go at Sacred 2, but it doesn't feel as fluid as TQ did. You also have D3 coming this year, and with news of Black Legion starting to come out it should be an exciting time for all of us in this genre for the next few years.

Good luck, and whatever you do, don't let EA get involved :D

[yerkyerk]

Good luck, and whatever you do, don't let EA get involved :D
Lol, very true :happy:

[rocketranger]

Fantastic news! TQ got me away from playing D2. Glad that there's more comming from the same source! Keeping my fingers crossed for a pc version :)

[Durandal]

TQ is the best action-rpg to come out since D2, and TQ:IT was a great expansion. I can't wait to try out Black Legion on my PS3 or (even better) PC.

[AshedDreams]

I'm so gona pre order a copy of BL. Good Luck guys. Big fan of TQ. Very nice game.

[TheFatKidDeath]

Excellent news! Titan Quest is one of my favorite PC games of all time and it's nice to read that we will be getting a spiritual successor. Though I'd really love to read that TQ II is on the way:lol: Like many here, I have hundreds of hours into TQ and would like to thank you for making such a replayable game. I remember following the game a year or so before it's launch and attending E3 the year it launched with that cool booth - picked up my demo from there and spoke with Brian Sullivan and perhaps you Medierra(?).


Question(s) for you Medierra:

1)With BL are you striving for the same type of art direction? And will you have many of the original art team from TQ working on BL? TQ art direction was outstanding everything from the weapons, armour, creatures and surroundings. The many classical settings and areas are so well done.

2)We would all hate to see a console game that then was ported to the PC as we all know how those usually turn out. Is the PC a side focus or is it a priority?

Lastly, make sure on your next game you actually have the reviewers PLAY the game:knockout: It was so frustrating reading, say the IGN review for TQ and it was obvious the reviewer did not even take time to play the game!

[medierra]

Hi, thanks for the encouragement! The first thing I want to make clear to everyone is that we're still trying to sign a deal. We're exploring other options aside from Black Legion as well, although I can't go into any detail about those except to say that, yes, they have RPG elements. So, I don't want people to get too excited just yet because the future isn't definite.

Ok now that I've gotten the disclaimer out of the way... answers below



Question(s) for you Medierra:

1)With BL are you striving for the same type of art direction? And will you have many of the original art team from TQ working on BL? TQ art direction was outstanding everything from the weapons, armour, creatures and surroundings. The many classical settings and areas are so well done.

With BL we are aiming for grittier, slightly more realistic textures, although they will still be somewhat stylized and not be photo-real. I think some of the key goals with art direction are maintaining consistency with quality and style, choosing a complimentary color palette, and good lighting. We will have some of the same artists, including one or two of the leads. Since we have gotten more exposure and developed more industry connections over the years, I think it will also be a little easier to attract talent than when I was first with ILE and we were a totally unknown studio.



2)We would all hate to see a console game that then was ported to the PC as we all know how those usually turn out. Is the PC a side focus or is it a priority?

Well, I think a lot of the stigma that ports get comes from the fact that many of them are after-thoughts. I really have no idea right now what platforms we'll end up releasing on and in what order. There is still a chance we may be working on a PC-only product as the free-to-play market has become very successful and some companies are interested in that model. If we do a console-first and delayed PC release it won't be because the PC is an afterthought. It would be because we don't want the pressure of 3 simultaneous releases on three platforms. This has the added benefit that the game would need to go through console certification before its PC release, which should result in a better PC release. Since there is no certification process for PC, games that come out on PC first often release with a lot of issues that later get resolved for the console launch.

Either way, nothing has been decided yet. As I mentioned, we're pitching other concepts in addition to Black Legion. The platforms we end up releasing on will be determined by the game we sign and who we sign with.

I'll let you guys know as soon as there is any news that can be revealed.



Lastly, make sure on your next game you actually have the reviewers PLAY the game:knockout: It was so frustrating reading, say the IGN review for TQ and it was obvious the reviewer did not even take time to play the game!

Haha, sadly we have no control over that. Yeah, I don't remember which review it was from but I remember one reviewer complaining about how we didn't have any system for teleporting back to town even though it was in the tutorial and there is a teleport button in the center of the HUD. Another guy complained about how monsters dropped equipment totally unrelated to what they were carrying just like every other RPG - even though TQ had a wysiwyg drop system. Sigh... "what can one do against such reckless hate?"

My hope is that TQ earned us some fans and this time around we won't be quite as much of the unknown studio that ILE was when releasing TQ.


-medierra

[Tyr]

TQ is not only a excellent game with the technical stuff, it had nice BGM's... good dialogues... All the little cool stuff that game developers nowadays take too much for granted.
The problem is that when you add those up you make up like 30% of a great game, which is what Titan Quest is. :)
Their games are good, I hope this time around they fare better out there.

[Vifarc]

My hope is that TQ earned us some fans and this time around we won't be quite as much of the unknown studio that ILE was when releasing TQ.
Yeah, but you will have too, among the fans, the mistrust of those hating all the bugs of TQ-ImmortalThrone and DoW-Soulstorm.

[yerkyerk]

Personally, I don't think Titan Quest was all that bugged compared with other games. Sure, we've made a bugfix fanpatch after the company went down to fix a large amount of bugs and we still haven't gotten all of them down, but I never noticed any bug when playing through the game (even though they were there affecting the gameplay).

Diablo II, for example, even though it has a much larger following and probably still gets a lot more sales than TQ does, has a large amount of bugs. You only really get to know these bugs once you're deep into the game, but some of them are quite nasty. Not that D2 was a buggy game though - it's just one of those games in which all bugs are weeded out and examined at the deepest level. It's not like a game you play through once and forget about it. If you want a buggy game, take Gothic 3 for example.

[metalbolt]

I actually reviewed TQ when I was an editor for Hardcore Gamer Magazine - and, yes, I got plenty of time with it before reviewing it. I had no clue what to expect when I set my hands on TQ back then, and I surely am happy that it was assigned to me. It is definitely the best “Dungeon Crawler/Hack n Slash/Loot the World” game that I have ever played.

It’s not much that I bother interacting with the game community anymore, but I felt that this was worth it...

It’s great to hear that you are “back in business!” Keep it up, and please, I beg of you, put out another stellar product, as you did with TQ. TQ hit me upside the head like a ton of bricks... a ton of bricks that make you happy inside! I don’t remember if I stated this in the review or not, but TQ did everything right that no one realized D2 did wrong! This coming from someone who put way too many hours into D2, and complained the entire way. As I played TQ, I kept thinking: “You know, that makes way too much sense. I can’t believe I never realized that D2 messed that one up!” Yeah, awesome stuff.

(I no longer work with HGM, so this is, of course, not representative of their attitude on the matter.)

Put out something great!

[medierra]

Yeah, but you will have too, among the fans, the mistrust of those hating all the bugs of TQ-ImmortalThrone and DoW-Soulstorm.

I've seen similar grumblings from some other people and if that is true, its unfortunate since we aren't connected to the technical problems with those games. Not that I think most were really that significant compared with other successful titles. The rubberbanding in TQ:IT seems like the most significant issue and certainly would have been patched had the company not been forced to close down. None the less, no one at Crate was involved with the engineering at Iron Lore and we aren't using any of the technology developed by Iron Lore. I'd be happy if we were working with engineers from ILE though, because they were top-notch people.

The main issue is that the ILE engineering team got saddled with too much work and not enough time to do it in. Iron Lore was attempting to launch a company and build a team from the ground up while also developing their own engine and tools. The fact that ILE was a new, unknown company just made it that much more difficult to hire good programmers. To top it off, due to random unfortunate circumstances, a couple programmers had to leave midway through the project, which left the rest of the engineering team even more overburdened.

We're taking measures to mitigate these risks at Crate. One of them is to license an existing game engine so we're not trying to develop new technology / tools and build a game at the same time.

Of course, most people won't know any of this and some who didn't like TQ may avoid us but still, starting with some fans is better than starting with 0 fans. ; )

[medierra]

Wow, thanks for the great words! I will resume working on my current design project with 100% chance of +10% inspiration.

(grrr... yes I will improve the description syntax on the next game) :errf:





I actually reviewed TQ when I was an editor for Hardcore Gamer Magazine - and, yes, I got plenty of time with it before reviewing it. I had no clue what to expect when I set my hands on TQ back then, and I surely am happy that it was assigned to me. It is definitely the best “Dungeon Crawler/Hack n Slash/Loot the World” game that I have ever played.

It’s not much that I bother interacting with the game community anymore, but I felt that this was worth it...

It’s great to hear that you are “back in business!” Keep it up, and please, I beg of you, put out another stellar product, as you did with TQ. TQ hit me upside the head like a ton of bricks... a ton of bricks that make you happy inside! I don’t remember if I stated this in the review or not, but TQ did everything right that no one realized D2 did wrong! This coming from someone who put way too many hours into D2, and complained the entire way. As I played TQ, I kept thinking: “You know, that makes way too much sense. I can’t believe I never realized that D2 messed that one up!” Yeah, awesome stuff.

(I no longer work with HGM, so this is, of course, not representative of their attitude on the matter.)

Put out something great!

[Vifarc]

Personally, I don't think Titan Quest was all that bugged
So do I. I talked about Immortal Throne, not Titan Quest.
Thanks you for the patch mod, else I'll be still very disappointed
with IT. As you were probably too...

[The Rock-man]

Really considering everything TQ:IT is fairly bug free, without the CFP I mean there no major bug apart from the quests bonuses that didn't carry over to next difficulty. For a comparison take just about any other game and don't patch them (apart from if you including an expansion in which case expansion patches is allowed) you find far more game breaking bugs.

[Sniper_Elite]

Good luck, and whatever you do, don't let EA get involved :D

Totally agree.......

Heh it's great to see the amazing creators of TQ are getting together and carrying on making the games we love - medierra, I salute you!

Keep up the great work :)

- Sniper Out

[Smash]

I cry from happiness.

But i do not own xbox360 or PS3, ****. I don't like overall console games. Only game i liked that was ported was OverLord.

[Vifarc]

Really considering everything TQ:IT is fairly bug free, without the CFP I mean there no major bug apart from the quests bonuses that didn't carry over to next difficulty.
Yeah that's why IT needed a good fanpatch :whistle:

For a comparison take just about any other game
Don't hide IT bugs behind other games.

and don't patch them (apart from if you including an expansion in which case expansion patches is allowed)
Lol, sure if you don't patch a very bugged game, it's still too bugged!!:lol:

you find far more game breaking bugs.
Doh! :D

[sensation]

Good luck guys. I bet you guys are gonna do a great job on it!

[medierra]

Yeah that's why IT needed a good fanpatch :whistle:

Don't hide IT bugs behind other games.

Lol, sure if you don't patch a very bugged game, it's still too bugged!!:lol:

Doh! :D


Wow... *equips troll resist gear*

[sensation]

Wow... *equips troll resist gear*

The one thing that makes me believe in new companies, are people like you. They actually talk. And they have a sense of humor, they know where it's all about...

=)

[medierra]

The one thing that makes me believe in new companies, are people like you. They actually talk. And they have a sense of humor, they know where it's all about...

=)


Haha, thanks. Likewise, people like you make me believe in the gaming audience. ; )

[Munderbunny]

lol, yeah, IronLore sucks at releasing patches ever since they went out of business. It's like they don't exist anymore!

Now, what Oblivion's excuse? :O

Medierra, pull strings, get us the source code! Ok, or at least the mesh format--you should see the photoshop gymnastics we gotta do to make new creatures...it's...it's embarrassing. :/

[Vifarc]

"Who cares for good, punishes as well."(?)
I don't know if there is the same proverb as the french one ("Qui aime bien châtie bien.")

[medierra]

"Who cares for good, punishes as well."(?)
I don't know if there is the same proverb as the french one ("Qui aime bien châtie bien.")

Spare the rod, spoil the child? Speaking of proverbs, another good one is "Art has no enemy except ignorance".

If you're bitter because the health regeneration in Stone Form is too low, that's something for which I'll gladly accept responsibility. If you were traumatized by bad loot pacing, that's also my fault. If the skill mastery system ruined your life, that's me too. Don't like the art? Yeah, you could blame some of my colleagues for that.

Titan Quest must have caused you unspeakable suffering for you to linger around on the fansite for over year waiting to flame me about it. I mean, that's why you've stuck around for so long right? Since Titan Quest is apparently a terrible game you must have quit playing it almost immediately and for all this time you've just been lurking in the shadowy world of forum trolls waiting for the opportunity to exact righteous vengeance.

Although no one at Crate Entertainment is an owner or engineer from Iron Lore or a publisher that had authority over patching the game, we will close down our company immediately, abandon all efforts to create future games, and commit ritual suicide to atone for grievous wrongs that you have obviously suffered from buying Titan Quest. I hope this will be satisfactory reparation and that after justice is carried out, you will be able to move on from this forum and start a new life for yourself.

Yours Truly,
Medierra ; )

[medierra]

lol, yeah, IronLore sucks at releasing patches ever since they went out of business. It's like they don't exist anymore!

Now, what Oblivion's excuse? :O

Medierra, pull strings, get us the source code! Ok, or at least the mesh format--you should see the photoshop gymnastics we gotta do to make new creatures...it's...it's embarrassing. :/

Yeah, I'm not sure there is much I can do here but I've forwarded the request to those who have authority over such matters. They're still trying to sell the engine, so I don't think they'll release any part of it for free but who knows.

[Munderbunny]

Titan Quest must have caused you unspeakable suffering for you to linger around on the fansite for over year waiting to flame me about it. I mean, that's why you've stuck around for so long right? Since Titan Quest is apparently a terrible game you must have quit playing it almost immediately and for all this time you've just been lurking in the shadowy world of forum trolls waiting for the opportunity to exact righteous vengeance.

*cough*pwnd*cough*

[jiaco]

Maybe we should be pushing for the source code of the modding tools first? What do you think medierra? Is there a chance in Hades of that happening?

[medierra]

Maybe we should be pushing for the source code of the modding tools first? What do you think medierra? Is there a chance in Hades of that happening?

I sent an email inquiring about it but, as I mentioned before, it seems unlikely as long as they believe there is the potential for commercial interest in the engine... unless of course someone can cough up $100k for the license.

[jiaco]

I sent an email inquiring about it but, as I mentioned before, it seems unlikely as long as they believe there is the potential for commercial interest in the engine... unless of course someone can cough up $100k for the license.

Just got an email the other day saying I won some lottery in some country, as soon as they pay me, I pick up the bill, no problemo.;)

Thanks for your effort, and for sticking around these forums.

[medierra]

Just got an email the other day saying I won some lottery in some country, as soon as they pay me, I pick up the bill, no problemo.;)

Thanks for your effort, and for sticking around these forums.

Actually, maybe you could help me. My sister in law's ex-uncle was recently brought up on false charges by government conspirators in Zimbabwe and they were forced to flee the country. He has deposited $2349826598263520865 USD in an account and needs help transferring it out of the country. We just need another account to keep the money in temporarily and for some reason we can't just open our own account. So if you could provide us with your account number and personal information, we will transfer the money into your bank account and for your services we would give you 11.9% of the $2349826598263520865 USD.

If you agree just forward your account number, social security number, and any other personal information we might need to steal... err.. I mean make the transaction.

k, thnx!

[MadWasp]

Allright, allright lets finish off the hot air!


Last time I visited the igromania web page where I found a nice article about Crate Entertainment: Black Legion!


There were some unique news...http://www.igromania.ru/Articles/14935/Black_Legion.htm


-Game 50% is ready to go(progress level)...is it possible? (throughout 1.5 short years of development)

-five playable character (included thief and killer)Predestined bonuses/magic items/unique situations

-Modern weapons(?) guns instead of crossbows... hmmm a modern hack 'n'slash?

We the TQ:IQ frenchise would like to know some exclusive news about this superb game possibility. Some feature note...or an unique ingame screenshot.

Dear,
Madierra "lets finish off the hot air!" :) Keep us inform!

[MadWasp]

TQ:IT of coure :)

[AntarcticSNAKE]

uh, translate much?

[AntarcticSNAKE]

Sorry for double-post, but;

The full information on game:
Black Legion

* the Genre: Action/RPG
* the Multiplayer: No
* the Developer: Crate Entertainment
* exit Date: 2009
* the Official site of game: www.crateentertainment.com

Authors of one of the best action/RPG for PC — Titan Quest — have not sunk into oblivion. After studio Iron Lore closing its leading designer Arthur Bruno (Arthur Bruno) and art director Eric Kampanella (Eric Campanella) have collected a new command — Crate Entertainment. And there and then have begun to do action/RPG Black Legion which can be characterised so: «Titan Quest meets Gears of War».

The first that we need to know about Black Legion: it is multiplatform game, and at first there will be a version for Xbox 360, and already then the project is promised портировать on PC. The second — the basic reference point for it serves exemplary action Gears of War which today do not copy unless authors of quests and nurseries платформеров. Arthur Bruno in our interview has not wanted to go into details in this respect, but to guess simply: for us wait a kind from the third party, the chamber located almost at the shoulder of the hero, брутальные men in the massive reservation and possibility to use shelter. However, all it — adjusted for a gloomy fantasy, huge swords and арбалеты instead of shot-guns (however, there will be also the unique automatic weapon shooting, for example, сюрикенами) and a vigorous points counter of experience.

At the same time on the role stuffing Black Legion in many respects copies mechanics Titan Quest. Here there will be five base classes, some rulers of the skill, allowing to be improved in possession of any weapon or magic, and the weight of abilities of the character. All can be combined it, forming own style of passage. «This system becomes even more flexible and more various, we even will allow the player to roll away back and to redistribute experience points», — Arthur Bruno speaks.

The solid editor for creation of the hero is promised also. Besides appearance we choose also background of the character. It can be the murderer or the thief, it can appear unfairly condemned or a victim of circumstances. The choice defines not only starting bonuses in the form of any special abilities, but also influences directly a plot. At the very beginning of game the hero should finish service in elite military formation «the Black legion» but as it will occur — depends exclusively on us. Then, the truth, script writers will make the proposal which it is impossible to refuse: us in any case will send on the extremely important task, having given out preliminary in using rare equipment and one unique magic artefact.

Authors draw world Black Legion mainly gloomy paints. Here there is an eternal war in which the mankind will disappear one of these days. Harm reigns for a long time, people wage unsuccessful enough war, and everything that it on forces, is to try to rescue last human city. «You are waited by history about a survival, a noble victim and hope in most dark of times», — Arthur Bruno promises.

The main thing that excites us in connection with all aforesaid, — as authors will combine detailed role mechanics Titan Quest with dynamics of console games. Speech first of all goes about management in fight. After all Black Legion — not a typical action with necessity to tap florid combos on геймпаде. It first of all RPG where it is necessary to use abilities of the hero quickly. In this connection Crate Entertainment from zero create the certain innovative monitoring system allowing operatively, without stops on fraud in the menu, to get access to set of skills and to involve them depending on a situation. «It seems to us that this system even is more functional than the keyboard in Titan Quest. It can be transferred on PC. Thus, we will translate RPG on a new level of development», — Arthur Bruno makes Napoleonic plan

Than has ended recent attempt to combine a sanguineous action and RPG — we saw one month ago (see Rise of the Argonauts). But the chance all the same is: Titan Quest was one of few games who as equals talked with Diablo. So you never can tell — it is possible, Black Legion can rise on one level with Mass Effect.
__________________________________________________ __


Web translator has spoken.

[MadWasp]

thx, for the exact translate. I used the google translator...and this is not the best method for this work. :)

Language skill is the most perfect one for this. And you have it. :)

[MadWasp]

oops...its google too. :)

[MadWasp]

Sorry about triple post...but i'm so excited about great news. I'm keen on doing titan quest...I'm a real TQ fan.

so in black legion there will be medieval style weapons(much better sword, mace, axe, bow, spear, etc.).
I miss translated modern weapons things.
Hail to crossbows & other antique weapons! :)))

[The Rock-man]

Yep Black Legion sounds interesting I like to hear more.

MadWasp at the bottom of your posts there's a little button with the word edit on it please remember to use it instead of doing a new post.

[MadWasp]

Roger that! :)

[medierra]

Ok, well let me provide a little information and clear up some of the confusion.



-Game 50% is ready to go(progress level)...is it possible? (throughout 1.5 short years of development)

The game is really only about 10% complete, with most of the conceptual work being done. It can't really progress any further without outside investment.



-five playable character (included thief and killer)Predestined bonuses/magic items/unique situations

There are five base professions but the character system is modular like TQ, offering many possible combinations. The difference is that you don't combine base classes like in TQ, rather there are a number of different secondary skill sets to choose from. Your character is built from three different skill components though, unlike TQ's two, allowing for more possible variation. The reason the base classes or "professions" do not combine together is because BL was designed for the inclusion of competitive multiplayer and I felt it was important to have fixed class bases with distinct multiplayer roles around which gameplay could be balanced.



-Modern weapons(?) guns instead of crossbows... hmmm a modern hack 'n'slash?

There are no guns in BL. The culture in Black Legion has an advanced understanding of mechanical engineering though and has been able to create deadly war machines and weaponry such as an automatic crossbow. This idea was inspired by the sophisticated mechanical creations of Archimedes and Leonardo Di Vinci. Black Legion is set in a fictional world and is not historical but is inspired by the idea of a Rome that never fell in a world where gunpowder wasn't discovered.

So, unfortunately, the state of things is that this game cannot progress further until we find funding. Given the nature of Black Legion as a big RPG, it also comes with somewhat of a big budget. Not big relative to RPGs like Hellgate London or Dragon Age, but big for a small studio in this economy. So we're still pitching it but we're also exploring other options with smaller projects.

Hope that helps clear things up...

-medierra

[MadWasp]

Greetings medierra!

Oh, thx for clear up my mind about this project...


I hope you are going to get a great deal of funds soon!
We live in dark times, general world crisis...hard times...I know.

Its not an easy fight. Crate Entertaiment have to survive. Use your manager skills and produce connections(Both in USA and in EU too) to earn money for this sweet project.

TQ frenchise keep in trust in you!

Good luck...you'll need it!

[yerkyerk]

Sounds good, looking forward to it :)

I hope you can secure the required funding for this, would be ashame to see this project stagnating because of the absence of funds...

[MadWasp]

Maybe ASIA also can help you in Black Legion funds! Great marketplace....a lot costumer...so a lot money...


Money means stability to progress this work.

Rise 10%
Keep up the good work!

[sensation]

Haha, thanks. Likewise, people like you make me believe in the gaming audience. ; )


hehe, thx to. Seems like we are both happy then :rockon:

[sensation]

There are five base professions but the character system is modular like TQ, offering many possible combinations. The difference is that you don't combine base classes like in TQ, rather there are a number of different secondary skill sets to choose from. Your character is built from three different skill components though, unlike TQ's two, allowing for more possible variation. The reason the base classes or "professions" do not combine together is because BL was designed for the inclusion of competitive multiplayer and I felt it was important to have fixed class bases with distinct multiplayer roles around which gameplay could be balanced.


That means that em, some guys will have eumhh, LOADS of character if they want them all lol

---I would have liked to edit my reply above, but i don't seem to be able to do that.---

[Renevent]

Any news? Titan Quest is by far my favorite H&S game (I like it even more than Diablo 2) and I am dying to find out more about Black Legion!

Seriously...like my 4 year old says...if you don't tell me more about black legion I will die!!! (except she is talking about ice cream :P )

[The Rock-man]

Sounds like medierra saying there's 5 basic character class and those 5 have multiple skill sets and you can pick three of them. If that the case you have tons of characters to make to try all possible skill combos, as if theres only 4 skill sets you need at lest 10 characters to cover all skill types but for all skill combo need 20 (assuming you can get every skill in a set).
For 9 skills sets per class to have every possible skill set combo its a massive 84*5=420 characters needed.

[Roland]

http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=12802

by Dhruin, 2009-08-05 22:41:56

Remember Crate Entertainment and Black Legion? Crate was formed by ex-Iron Lore vets and initially announced a sci-fi action/RPG. GameBanshee writes in to say they have news Crate will be using their old tech from Titan Quest, with Black Legion put on hold to focus on what sounds like a fantasy title:

Crate Entertainment has licensed the Titan Quest engine from Iron Lore. THQ owns the rights to the TQ IP, so we won't be making a TQ2 anytime soon but we are developing a new game for PC that will offer similar ARPG gameplay but in a darker fictional setting. Right now we have no outside funding and are operating as a privately funded indie-developer. So if we continue in this manner, the scope will be somewhat reduced from TQ in terms of total art assets but we're developing gameplay systems in a new way that will allow us to actually have more depth in certain areas.

:)

[Vampyrchief]

Really glad to hear the good news. Very best of luck and God Bless You.

Would just like you to know that as soon as Black Legion comes out I'm getting my copy if it releases in India.

[yerkyerk]

Afaik, Black Legion has been postponed due to not finding fundings for that project yet, instead Crate focuses on a hack'n slash RPG based on the TQ engine, which should be released digitally.

[khrotos]

I'm kind of glad Black Legion is off the table. I never understood why it came to light. TQ is a PC game, the fans are PC gamers, and it had a thriving modding community. Releasing a console exclusive game with "hopes for a PC port" doesn't make sense. You're alienating everyone who bought your first game, the only people looking forward to the new one, and you're doing this with a brand new company that only the PC gamers who have followed your studio would know about.

[yerkyerk]

As a pc gamer, I too am glad that they're choosing to develop another pc game, but I can understand why they'd choose to go for console with Black Legion. I kinda doubt the TQ fanbase is big enough to warrant enough sales. Especially since most TQ'ers probably don't know the connection between Iron Lore and Crate anyway..

[khrotos]

I wonder if they're able to put "From the guys who brought you Titan Quest!" on the box.

Going console is all too often looked at as being an easy ticket to some cash. MMO is looked at the same way. So, what normally happens? You get crushed by the more heavily funded competition. It is both sad and hilarious to watch these companies fall. It's like no one ever learns anything. The two big PC to console developers are Bethesda and Bioware, and they got there by having beneficiaries who absolutely adore them and by first porting their PC game to console.

[Vifarc]

Many TQers went to the game for the fan-patch* (awared trough PC-games forums) and the low cost "Titan Quest - Gold Edition" (TQ+IT). I think patch and gold-ed made a late selling combo (nowadays publishers asked THQ rights to sell it).
As they discover TQ is a good game (and keeps health despite its age), "made by TQ guys" could be a still good sticker on ILE games.

* Not me. I was fan before TQ was in store. I tell h&s players to buy this gold-edition (I wouldn't if there was not the fan-patch).

[Vampyrchief]

Afaik, Black Legion has been postponed due to not finding fundings for that project yet, instead Crate focuses on a hack'n slash RPG based on the TQ engine, which should be released digitally.

Okay, but a small question.
- Another hack 'n slash RPG - great news.
- Based off of TQ engine - Perfect


- Released Digitally ????

Then I don't think it will be available in India. Will it? :cry:
I had to go through great pains to buy TQ in India & then IT when it was released.

Kindly advice.

[yerkyerk]

Digitally seems rather easy to obtain, as opposed to getting a physical copy of the game. I'm not sure about this, but can't you just download games from Steam and D2D?

[khrotos]

Okay, but a small question.
- Another hack 'n slash RPG - great news.
- Based off of TQ engine - Perfect


- Released Digitally ????

Then I don't think it will be available in India. Will it? :cry:
I had to go through great pains to buy TQ in India & then IT when it was released.

Kindly advice.

Couldn't you just set up a proxy to get around any location restrictions?

[medierra]

- Released Digitally ????

Then I don't think it will be available in India. Will it? :cry:
I had to go through great pains to buy TQ in India & then IT when it was released.

Kindly advice.

Hi,

It seems like it should be much easier for you to obtain this way unless I am mistaken. I looked up traffic stats for Steam and it seems 1.4% of their users are based in India.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/steampowered.com

or you can always just go here and find out for yoruself:

http://store.steampowered.com/

We haven't made a final decision yet on how and where the game will be made available but at the moment Steam seems a likely choice.

best,
medierra

[medierra]

Going console is all too often looked at as being an easy ticket to some cash. MMO is looked at the same way. So, what normally happens? You get crushed by the more heavily funded competition. It is both sad and hilarious to watch these companies fall. It's like no one ever learns anything.

More like: going console is all too often looked at as being the only way you'll likely get publisher funding for your project and avoid going out of business.

The less you understand about the nature of a problem, the more obvious the answer usually seems. In the case of ILE going console, the decision wasn't a matter of who was going to buy the game, it was a matter of who was going to fund it's development.

While working on Immortal Throne, Iron Lore created and pitched a concept to THQ and other publishers for their next mythology inspired PC ARPG. THQ said they were not interested in another Titan Quest product and the message we got from other publishers was that a PC focused product was a non-starter. At the time most were looking for Xbox360 with PC port and some wanted Xbox360 and PS3 with no PC port. The outlook on PC at that point in time was very negative for publishers.

Iron Lore was almost out of operational funds and on the brink of closing its doors when some supporters from THQ came through for us with the DoW: Soul Storm project. The money from that project would keep Iron Lore afloat for another 9 months and allow development of a new game concept.

Unfortunately, there were a lot of reason why Iron Lore would have liked to stay PC-only and one of those was the problem of porting their engine to run on console. It took a significant amount of time to get a demo running on console. This did not leave sufficient time for the company to pitch Black Legion and survive through lengthy contract negotiations. Iron Lore did generate a lot of publisher interest with Black Legion and got into serious talks with a couple publishers. It looked like a publishing deal was on the horizon but, sadly, the owners realized in Jan of 2008 that they did not have enough funds to keep the company open as long as it would likely have taken to sign a deal. They made the difficult but commendable decision to close down while they still had enough money to pay their employees severance.

With regards to Crate pitching Black Legion... Given how close Iron Lore had seemingly come to landing a deal for it, we thought it made sense to pick up where ILE had left off. Unfortunately, the timing was terrible as the economy was sinking further into crisis and some of our best prospects in terms of publishers were undergoing massive layoffs and canceling projects.

Under such economic conditions, it seemed very unlikely that anyone was going to take a risk funding a small start-up. So we started thinking of ways we could develop something independent of outside funding. Fortunately, we happened to know some people that could license us an RPG engine and toolset at very reasonable costs. ; )

And so, here we are, on the path of virtue once again!

[khrotos]

More like: going console is all too often looked at as being the only way you'll likely get publisher funding for your project and avoid going out of business.

That's step 1. I outlined step 2 - death without mercy. You go out of business anyways.


In the case of ILE going console, the decision wasn't a matter of who was going to buy the game, it was a matter of who was going to fund it's development.

That's the same thing. Publishers aren't going to fund something that they think people won't buy. That's where my criticism comes in. Publishers go after the largest, most expensive, and most overly saturated markets these days no matter the genre, the tech, or the philosophy of the developers.

Anyways, your post was an interesting quick read. Thanks. :)

[medierra]

That's the same thing. Publishers aren't going to fund something that they think people won't buy. That's where my criticism comes in. Publishers go after the largest, most expensive, and most overly saturated markets these days no matter the genre, the tech, or the philosophy of the developers.

Well, the point is that it isn't same thing. Obviously publishers aren't going to fund something that they think people wouldn't buy but there are also reasons why they may not fund something that people would buy.

And to be fair, it sounds like your criticism has been revised since it was originally about Iron Lore going to console and alienating its audience, rather than publishers targeting saturated markets. The latter I can definitely agree with.

I'm just saying, though the decision for Iron Lore to go console may not have made sense from an audience perspective, they didn't have much of a choice.


It is both sad and hilarious to watch these companies fall.

I guess I'm just not able to understand why a small company of dedicated people being forced out of business is hilarious.

Grow a heart dude. ; p

[Lithographer]

And so, here we are, on the path of virtue once again!

thats terrific and all....but what if instead of simply offering the world yet another reason to click away the baddies of the world ... you made a great arpg for xboxlive and...then sold expansions over live...and other dlc goodness that made you bank? Xbox not strike your fancy? how about psn? There isn't a good arpg in the vein of what you guys make on any console... you'd be the only show in town worth watching....


I dont think I can click away evil anymore...for it bores me to tears.... however I do love loot and the idea of getting more loot. please consider it...

[medierra]

thats terrific and all....but what if instead of simply offering the world yet another reason to click away the baddies of the world ... you made a great arpg for xboxlive and...then sold expansions over live...and other dlc goodness that made you bank? Xbox not strike your fancy? how about psn? There isn't a good arpg in the vein of what you guys make on any console... you'd be the only show in town worth watching....


I'd be careful man, there are people on this forum that have killed men for saying less...

The main impediment to doing something like that is that we don't have a console-ready engine. Unfortunately, given the sales figures I've seen and the cost to put out a game like this on XBLA or PSN, it doesn't seem like it would be our best shot at avoiding starvation. ; )

[yerkyerk]

Perhaps we should hold a sponsored marathon and send food packages to Crate?

As for the promoting-going-to-xbox idea...

*goes off to search for his banhammer*

[medierra]

Perhaps we should hold a sponsored marathon and send food packages to Crate?

As for the promoting-going-to-xbox idea...

*goes off to search for his banhammer*

Food packages could certainly help accelerate development as it would cut down on time spent hunting / gathering.

[SoulSeekkor]

Food packages could certainly help accelerate development as it would cut down on time spent hunting / gathering.

Any programmer knows that it's SODA that developers need, not food packages...save for frozen pizzas perhaps. :D

Soul

[medierra]

Any programmer knows that it's SODA that developers need, not food packages...save for frozen pizzas perhaps. :D

Soul

I think I've already surpassed my lifetime recommended allowance of pizza.

On related note, one of the most horrific atrocities I've witnessed as a game developer is the hot-pocket pyramid. Three hot-pockets prepared simultaneously as a single meal, stacked in pyramid form on a white paper plate. It is truly terrible to behold 174% of your recommended daily allowance of saturated fat on one plate.

I won't say who perpetrated this crime against nature but they were all artists...

[SoulSeekkor]

LOL!! I never thought to do that...hmmmm..... :lol:

Soul

[Lithographer]

I'd be careful man, there are people on this forum that have killed men for saying less...

The main impediment to doing something like that is that we don't have a console-ready engine. Unfortunately, given the sales figures I've seen and the cost to put out a game like this on XBLA or PSN, it doesn't seem like it would be our best shot at avoiding starvation. ; )



I had to at least try.... if any of these fools dare tread the hippy infested waters of the people's republic they'd be consumed by the thick mire of patchouli before they ever reached my abode :D

[ShadowDweller]

Uh... I'm sorry for breaking in, but... Medierra, are you still able to support Titan Quest somehow? Some official data / fixes would be greatly appreciated, as well as some hints to balance corrections...

[AntarcticSNAKE]

Uh... I'm sorry for breaking in, but... Medierra, are you still able to support Titan Quest somehow? Some official data / fixes would be greatly appreciated, as well as some hints to balance corrections...

There's already a fanpatch that fixes the major skill-related bugs and other glitches. and there's a balance patch in progress here on the forums.
http://www.titanquest.net/forums/balance-patch-discussion/

[ShadowDweller]

I guess that fanpatch project involves some reverse-engineering in libraries/executables, or whatever, I don't exactly know... I meant something that could be implemented core-wise. Like some new mechanics to bows/staves (they don't crit atm and double fail due to o_O-like OA checks, afaik)...

Duh, I'd better just stay in reading-mode. My ideas look dumb.

[medierra]

Uh... I'm sorry for breaking in, but... Medierra, are you still able to support Titan Quest somehow? Some official data / fixes would be greatly appreciated, as well as some hints to balance corrections...

Sorry but we cannot provide support for TQ in any official way since it is owned by THQ. We also do not posses the right version of the engine or any of the resources that would be necessary for such work.

[ShadowDweller]

Grim news. :(
I wonder... Does THQ itself pay any attention to TQ?..

[medierra]

Grim news. :(
I wonder... Does THQ itself pay any attention to TQ?..

It does not seem so.

[ShadowDweller]

I wonder if it is somehow possible to regain rights and data for TQ[IT] for a company or dev-group that IS interested in its further development.

Of course if there's any sense in it. Still, great game is great.

Back on topic: I've set my tracker to catch fresh news about your new project. You guys just ROCK. :)

[MadWasp]

Grim news. :(
I wonder... Does THQ itself pay any attention to TQ?..

Dont forget your word but someday will come a dawn...

[modeling_man]

Grim news. :(
I wonder... Does THQ itself pay any attention to TQ?..

Dont forget your word but someday will come a dawn...

So prophetic it hurts.
:pray:
B

[Rhis]

Wow, lol...

Not kidding.

[Poet of the Fall]

I wonder if it is somehow possible to regain rights and data for TQ[IT] for a company or dev-group that IS interested in its further development.

Of course if there's any sense in it. Still, great game is great.

Um... to make the rant really short: There will be no further development/support/whatever from official side. TQ is on the bargain stack and would have been gone completely by now if it it hadn't been picked up by digital distribution sites. It's core values and the (darn small) fanbase are of no importance whatsoever to the industry executives since it just didn't make enough money while it was in the spotlight. Welcome to the business world.

[khrotos]

When was the name Grim Dawn announced? And why is the dawn so sad?

[medierra]

When was the name Grim Dawn announced? And why is the dawn so sad?

It was announced as soon as the forum headings were changed ; )

The titanquest.net community are the first to know about it. We'll probably make an announcement to the general press in a few weeks.

It's the dawn of a era, and its looking to be a grim one.

[yerkyerk]

I wondered how long it would take for people to notice :)

[khrotos]

Is the story about the grim reaper trying to keep the world in perpetual darkness, creating a dawn with no sunlight??!

... because the night cycles, while pretty, really slowed my computer to a crawl in TQ.

[medierra]

Is the story about the grim reaper trying to keep the world in perpetual darkness, creating a dawn with no sunlight??!

... because the night cycles, while pretty, really slowed my computer to a crawl in TQ.


No... however, let me ask you this, did you experience the slowdown just in areas with shadow-casting lights such as torches that came on at night or even in locations with no "night-lights"? Did you have performance problems in undergrounds?

Heh... sorry, I just noticed I accidentally edited your message... lets try that again. Not used to having an edit button where my quote button used to be ; p

[khrotos]

Underground areas are amazingly smooth, so no problems there (except for the area with all the fire in the obsidian caves and the area with all the soul cages in the demon war camp... but that was due to the overload of particle effects or whatever).

I experience the slow down problems in areas with shadow casting lights and also areas with no night lights. Whenever the sky turns dark my FPS takes a major hit. Maybe it was all the blue hues (nights aren't really that dark... just very bluish)?

[medierra]

Underground areas are amazingly smooth, so no problems there (except for the area with all the fire in the obsidian caves and the area with all the soul cages in the demon war camp... but that was due to the overload of particle effects or whatever).

I experience the slow down problems in areas with shadow casting lights and also areas with no night lights. Whenever the sky turns dark my FPS takes a major hit. Maybe it was all the blue hues (nights aren't really that dark... just very bluish)?

I've heard other people mention that night caused slowdowns for them, so I have to believe something is going on there but I can't imagine why a shift in light color and intensity would cause that. We'll have to look into it.

[Gorkk]

We haven't made a final decision yet on how and where the game will be made available but at the moment Steam seems a likely choice.

best,
medierra
Posting quite some time after this one I quote, though I figured it was worth noting. In your research for means of digital distribution, I'd recommand considering StarDock Impulse (www.impulsedriven.com) too. I know first hand that some people really dislike Steam, and on the other hand really like StarDock's company spirit. Note that of course both channels are not incompatible, far from it, and that getting both means more exposition :)

On another unrelated topic, I hope you'll keep the localization system you had for Titan Quest and extend it for voices. Even if the game is first released with only English texts and voices, the option TQ had to select various text languages, and ease of accessing those texts for translation was great. Unfortunately it wasn't available for voices (you had to replace English voices with the voices of another language, e.g. French). If the game sells well and there is demand, you can then provide the translations, or simply let the community do the job too. I remember that for Titan Quest, there had been a time a community project to provide French voices for Titan Quest, which finally fell short as THQ France provided those voices ;)
Besides the system lets you have the good side of both having the game in multiple languages and having to maintain only one version of the game (i.e. no specific patches for this or that language, which is a nightmare on lots of games)

PS : I really wish you the best to get this project to birth. I along quite some others in the French community will seek it out when it'll come to life :)

[medierra]

Hi Gorkk

We are considering Impulse and various other services besides Steam, although Steam does have one of the largest audiences, so we will definitely be there.

We are using the same localization system but it could be some time before we're able to localize in other languages. I'm not sure that we'll be able to afford V/O in other languages just due to the cost unless our initial launch turns out to be more successful than our baseline estimates.

We realize that a lot of our potential audience is overseas though and will try to do whatever we can to accommodate them.

[Gorkk]

Hi Gorkk

We are considering Impulse and various other services besides Steam, although Steam does have one of the largest audiences, so we will definitely be there.
Nice to know :)


We are using the same localization system but it could be some time before we're able to localize in other languages. I'm not sure that we'll be able to afford V/O in other languages just due to the cost unless our initial launch turns out to be more successful than our baseline estimates.
Good news. For V/O too you'll use the same thing as in TQ with no modification? As TQ didn't allow to have several different V/O side by side, unlike for texts. Don't think making the same mechanism for V/O as for texts would be too much :)
And no worry, most people don't expect you to make V/O for multiple languages, at least on release. Even if texts are only in English, as long as the community has easy means to add localizations, it's a great step forward :) (I always hated games that would restrict available languages based on where you bought them, TQ way was great, only lacking for the voices selection ;))


We realize that a lot of our potential audience is overseas though and will try to do whatever we can to accommodate them.
I can assure you the community overseas will help you accommodate them :)

[Vifarc]

We are considering Impulse and various other services besides Steam, although Steam does have one of the largest audiences, so we will definitely be there.
One of the largest audiences is not enough. Please don't do as DoW2, Empire Total War and Blood Bowl. I couldn't buy them as I don't like this mega DRM Steam is.

[yerkyerk]

I like Steam. I already use it, but perhaps the more Digital Content Distribution Systems you can get, the better..

[jiaco]

My idea:

0) Make the game a no-DVD exe from the get go.
1) Release the game via torrents (free for you, no middle man)
2) Sell keys to get it out of demo mode on your own site via PayPal.
3) Mail DVDs for an extra fee for people so inclined to own something.
4) Sell a special DVD box that has a nice map and things like a monster manual, item catalog and a spell book for skills/masteries.

Sell unlock codes, which you could tie to activation keys so that they were non-transferable and inspire users to activate, which unlock special items. The first activation could give a special pair of boots for example.


All the money goes straight to you, except for PayPal's part. And you make your gamers happy with noDRM and people who can afford it will buy the box set and have cool stuff outside of the computer to look at.

You just need to hire a programmer to write the server code that handles activation and unlock code generation.

[Rhis]

My idea:

0) Make the game a no-DVD exe from the get go.
1) Release the game via torrents (free for you, no middle man)
2) Sell keys to get it out of demo mode on your own site via PayPal.
3) Mail DVDs for an extra fee for people so inclined to own something.
4) Sell a special DVD box that has a nice map and things like a monster manual, item catalog and a spell book for skills/masteries.

Sell unlock codes, which you could tie to activation keys so that they were non-transferable and inspire users to activate, which unlock special items. The first activation could give a special pair of boots for example.


All the money goes straight to you, except for PayPal's part. And you make your gamers happy with noDRM and people who can afford it will buy the box set and have cool stuff outside of the computer to look at.

You just need to hire a programmer to write the server code that handles activation and unlock code generation.

I an ideal world, maybe. Any such protection would be cracked in 20 minutes (not that any DRM wouldn't be cracked in the same amount of time).

Personally, I'm not a fan of DRM and I definitely don't believe that one pirated copy equals one lost sale. I would love to see a mainstream game released following the model you mentioned, but I doubt anyone in game development could look at it as anything but a huge risk.

[jiaco]

I think (well okay HOPE) that the ARPG gaming community has learned its lesson and will not only pay for their games but also try to financially aid any company that makes a decent ARPG in any way possible.


There are just too few good games and if gamers have not figured out that stealing the game will put the company out of business and lead to no more games from that company, then to hel with them.

Me, I will be buying the box set for me, my two kids, and even random people that I have no idea what to get for xmas. If the Grim Game turns out to be good. I would love to give them my money. If they only ship through those D2D and Steam type things, I will be a bit bummed as I like to have the DVD in the closet, even if I never use it once I have taken the activation key off the box.

So please, let me pay more (and pay you, the developers, directly) to have a physical copy of the game that I want to buy.

[RennEnte]

yea i would prefer to have a physical copy too!
Its fun to open a new box and because of having a slow connection i don't want to use steam!

[medierra]

One of the largest audiences is not enough. Please don't do as DoW2, Empire Total War and Blood Bowl. I couldn't buy them as I don't like this mega DRM Steam is.

The level of DRM employed on Steam is actually flexible and can be configured by the developer. I would guess a lot of publishers tend to use the more extreme implementation of Steam DRM. Its possible, for example, to configure Steam to require authentication every hour or only once ever during install.

Having come from a company that was hurt by both piracy and DRM, we will be very careful about the options we choose here. If we decide to use any DRM it would be something pretty minimal like authenticating copies for multiplayer, which is essentially what bnet does.

[medierra]

We've had discussions with smaller publishers about allowing them to handle retail distribution so we could get boxed copies on store shelves. We'll probably make a decision on this sometimes next year.

I think it could definitely help generate more awareness for the game but it also opens us up to that unpleasant possibility of a leaked copy appearing on bittorrent before we even release a la TQ.

I think the biggest fail for TQ, aside from its "stealth marketing campaign", was day-0 piracy and useless DRM making it appear as if the game was plagued with crash bugs. We definitely want to avoid this on both counts. Day-0 piracy may be an inevitability that we just have to accept but, with no publisher, retarded DRM is at least something we can control this time.

[Gorkk]

Thank you for those two messages medierra. I know they've filled me with hope, having been firmly opposed to all those invasive DRMs for several years. I'm really happy you guys feel that way about that issue, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

Having boxed copies is indeed a true risk, as due to the manufacturing process, there's a high chance (very close to 100% if not 100%) that the game will be leaked before its actual release. I'm not sure though that it would actually really hurt a game, at least not a game that is good and not full of bugs (wether actual bugs or bugs induced by the DRM that would not be circumvented "properly", it's the same in the eyes of the users), but to be sure that would require an extensive statistical study. However, it's pretty clear too that a lot of people eagerly awaiting a game, who sometimes even have preordered it, will jump on the occasion to be able to play the game earlier, while waiting for their game to be delivered or simply the game itself to be actually on sale. Some people would of course play the game early that way and not buy it of course, though, would they have bought it otherwise? I don't know.

Anyway, that risk really exists with boxed copies. If you want to have boxed copies at retailers, I don't think you can do much about it. However, there is another venue to offer boxed copies to your audience (which is not wasted, as I know a few people who would only buy games as physical copies) and at the same time avoid this risk, although it would only affect people who like to have a box, and not really give added visibility.

Independant developers like Introversion (http://www.introversion.co.uk/) offer both "electronic only" and "electronic + box" versions. Several games distribued by StarDock (like GalCiv and Sins of a Solar Empire) have options to pay a bit more ($10 + shipping actually) to get a box as well. One option then if going that route, is to start the manufacturing process only once the game is out as an electronic sale, that way there's no risk to have a leak during the manufacturing process, as the game is already out. You then can offer to people who buy early the option to "book their physical copy for when it'll be manufactured"), and after the 3 weeks or so it takes for the manufacturing process, well, it'll be like any other games.

Of course this option is not really possible when going for a presence on retailers shelves I think, as from what I heard and read, it's unlikely that retailers would gladly distribute the game and give it exposure if they are like 3 weeks late after the e-shops. But if it's "possible", it's an option to avoid that "Day 0 piracy" while still benefiting from boxed copies on shelves.

As a last note, I'd say that if you can follow StarDock's "spirit" about games, which is to release good and polished games, and provide nice support and added features to customers thereafter, you won't have to worry much about piracy (it will still there, but you would have caught most of the potential sales; it sure sucks to know that there's people that are enjoying your work for free, but when you know you've done your best to provide people who actually paid the best experience possible, and that those people support you for your quality products and respects, I'd say the reward more than balance that suck). Like frogboy from StarDock said after the StarForce issue, "The question isn't about eliminating piracy, it's about increasing sales. It's about trying to make sure that people who would buy your product buy it instead of steal it. "

Once again medierra, thanks for sharing so much with the community, that's in itself a reward for people who support you and believe in you guys.

PS: that post is very long, so here's the core of it ;)
- offering an option to get a boxed copy for a small fee + shipping when you buy the electronic version (cf. Introversion / StarDock on the games they publish) is really good and will satisfy people who like boxes (and avoid losing people who will only buy physically)
- releasing the boxes 3 weeks (or whatever time you need to manufacture) after the electronic release will avoid Day0 Piracy (unless you leak it yourself ;))
- the later might conflict with having boxes on shelves

[khrotos]

TQ's DRM was perfect*. DVD + CD key. The problem with Steam, Impulse, and online activation in general is that this is mainly a single player game, and the servers won't be up forever... and neither will the companies.

*The problem, of course, was the fact that it crashed the game if it was circumvented and offered no screen saying why the game crashed. Instead of crashing, had the game went to black and said "Thanks for playing! Please purchase the full version if you wish to continue on!", removed all torso armor while displaying a message about purchasing the full game on the bottom of the screen, or other such things while informing the pirate that they were playing a pirated copy, then IL would still be with us today. Of course I'm only repeating what has been said a million times before, but it's an important lesson, and making the game digital only with no way of backing it up is not the route to go.

I firmly believe that games are mainly pirated because they do not offer much playing value and/or have outrageous system requirements. Why spend $60 on something that you can complete in a weekend and never want to return to, and/or had to spend $300 on a graphics card just to start up?

[jiaco]

Just want to add one point.

Worry about the game, not the delivery system. I may have started this sidetrack in your thread, but I for one will buy your next game even if it is sold in binary written on toiletpaper.

You have earned my trust. Release it on Steam or whatever you can, I will play. If day0 is the biggest worry, release a DVD later on amazon. People that buy games in stores are becoming more and more in the minority. Most game stores hardly have a PC (or should I say, Windows) section at all.

My biggest issue is that I reinstall windows every 6 months. I have no idea if I can burn a Steam game to DVD to reinstall later or not as I have never downloaded a game before.

[medierra]

We wanted to make the game available through as many services as possible and were looking at Direct2Drive and Impulse but we also want to ensure that SoulSeekor doesn't buy a copy. So, to that end we will mostly likely restrict sales of the game only to Steam unless we can develop some sort of security system that can identify and block installation for specific people.

[medierra]

Just to be clear here, we're not focusing on digital distribution for DRM reasons. We're not really that concerned with DRM altogether. I don't think the majority of piracy can be prevented and attempting to do so at the expense of legitimate users just doesn't make sense to me.

We're focusing on digital distribution because we're a small company and it allows us to get our game out without a publishing deal. There is a good chance we will talk to publishers about retail distribution down the road but we don't want that to be a dependency.

[SoulSeekkor]

We wanted to make the game available through as many services as possible and were looking at Direct2Drive and Impulse but we also want to ensure that SoulSeekor doesn't buy a copy. So, to that end we will mostly likely restrict sales of the game only to Steam unless we can develop some sort of security system that can identify and block installation for specific people.

Heheh, boo. :p Don't get me wrong, Steam has come a long way from it's beginnings, but if having to have a CD wrong in the drive annoys people (yes it does irritate me as well)...having to have a "virtual" CD ie Steam installed in order to play really sucks. I think D2D has limits to # of installations, but I've never had an issue with TQ/IT when needing to reinstall the game often (reformat regularly) and can have the game downloaded and ready to go on my other drive. Makes installation a snap, only issue I suppose may be if you went the Steam route if they provide a means for downloadable content if you would be capable of providing that through any of the other services?

Soul

[jiaco]

Lets stop hijacking this thread?

http://www.titanquest.net/forums/debate-club/32482-can-project-x-make-money.html

[Renevent]

Then you didn't understand the quote and I can't really help you there.

If you want to pretend a quote magically dispels a startling statistic that not only is backed up by many in the industry, but also is inline with the mountains of other correlating data, I really can't help you either.


Lets stop hijacking this thread?

http://www.titanquest.net/forums/debate-club/32482-can-project-x-make-money.html

You are right, not like anybody's mind is going to change on this subject...regardless of how much information you show.

I won't drag this on anymore.

[BeaverusIV]

I am aching to buy Grim Dawn, but if I have to install something else with it (GWLIVE, Steam) I won't, I won't tell anyone I know about it. Sorry, but I am completely against having to install stuff I don't want on my computer; I don't use Adobe or Windows Live or anything else that unecessarily takes up my cpu cycles.

My idea (Don't know if truly feasable) is to have a private BT tracker; People who have paid get a passkey that allows the, to download the game and it reduces the amount of bandwidth required by you to distribute (I for one would seed for days).

The thing with game development and music is that they need to turn themselves upside down in how they do things. Stuff just doesn't work right now and piracy prevention will never work, people still murder even if it means possible death in some areas of the world (Extreme I know, but it shows my point).

Sidenote: Also, people need to stop comparing piracy to stealing, IT IS NOT STEALING, you are simply copying something you shouldn't. Even if it makes it sound less bad, thats still what it is; companies don't go bankrupt from people stealing discs, they go bankrupt because they can't cover their development costs.

[bman654]

Just to be clear here, we're not focusing on digital distribution for DRM reasons. We're not really that concerned with DRM altogether. I don't think the majority of piracy can be prevented and attempting to do so at the expense of legitimate users just doesn't make sense to me.

We're focusing on digital distribution because we're a small company and it allows us to get our game out without a publishing deal. There is a good chance we will talk to publishers about retail distribution down the road but we don't want that to be a dependency.

GamersGate is another good digitial distribution system - does not require the user to install any special download software and downloaded installers can be archived and used later on. Also, unlike almost every other digital distributor out there, they also do not typically mess with the installer you give them so you never have to worry if the bug is due to Steam's stuff or Impulse's installation system or what have you.

[gonzotgreat23]

We wanted to make the game available through as many services as possible and were looking at Direct2Drive and Impulse but we also want to ensure that SoulSeekor doesn't buy a copy. So, to that end we will mostly likely restrict sales of the game only to Steam unless we can develop some sort of security system that can identify and block installation for specific people.

I personally love Impulse. It's easy to use for the end user, keeps track of all the updates that are available for the 12 games I have from them, and since the purchase of games is tied to the user, it makes sure I'm the only one using the games I purchase. Of course, that may be because I don't share my login information with anyone (I also don't want anyone handing it to one of their friends and the next thing I know I have 50 new games that someone bought on my account). I also think that Impulse returns a higher percentage of purchase amount to the developers. (Okay, so the company is also based about 10 miles from my house, doesn't mean they don't have a good thing going)

[medierra]

I am aching to buy Grim Dawn, but if I have to install something else with it (GWLIVE, Steam) I won't, I won't tell anyone I know about it. Sorry, but I am completely against having to install stuff I don't want on my computer; I don't use Adobe or Windows Live or anything else that unecessarily takes up my cpu cycles.

Sidenote: Also, people need to stop comparing piracy to stealing, IT IS NOT STEALING, you are simply copying something you shouldn't. Even if it makes it sound less bad, thats still what it is; companies don't go bankrupt from people stealing discs, they go bankrupt because they can't cover their development costs.

In regards to the first issue, people need to relax, we'll provide alternative means to get the game that don't involve Steam. We're still early in development and just haven't committed to which additional distribution methods we will support yet. Steam was just an obvious first choice because a lot of people do like Steam, TQ:IT is in the top 75 games played there, and they do provide some cool development features. Personally though, I don't like buying games on Steam either. I think my own aversion to it is mainly psychological because I just don't like the premise of having to install more random bull**** on my computer but, whatever the reason, I can certainly appreciate how other people feel.

That said, there will be other means of buying the game, we just haven't committed to anything yet. There is a pretty good chance you'll be able to buy it in a store. There is an even better chance it will be available on other digital services. There is some chance we may go totally indie and try to work out some method of download from our website but that would probably come after the initial release just because we barely have time to think about anything beyond developing the game right now.

So far as piracy goes, I agree it can't be stopped but lets not fool ourselves here into think its totally innocuous. For most users tt may be more like buying stolen goods from a sketchy street vendor than actually breaking into a store and stealing merchandise but it definitely does contribute to companies going bankrupt.

If 100% of the people who enjoyed your product got it for free from someone else who was distributing a stolen copy, do you think you'd be able to cover your development costs? There is a certain level of piracy that is survivable for companies, where they can still make competitive products of a quality level that their paying customers demand. I think primarily the war against piracy is not an effort to eliminate it but rather to just keep it at levels where it is still possible to profit. That level where decent quality but reasonably budgeted games can profit may be as high as 80%. There are some countries though where the piracy levels are high enough that publishers don't even see them as a potential market. At least, not for standard single-player type games.

In terms of Iron Lore closing, there were more factors at work that just piracy - like any unfortunate event you can often look back and think of 100 things that, if done differently, might have prevented it. High piracy rates certainly didn't help though. I think the most damaging aspect of piracy for Iron Lore was not even directly related to our own sales. Around the time when we were trying to pitch a sequel, many PC products were experiencing unusually low sales vs. their console versions and it created a perception among many publishers that funding a PC-only game was too risky due to the increasingly high levels of piracy. THQ seemed to have lost interest in the PC market and also in a TQ sequel. Game developers usually go out of business not because they can't afford to cover development costs but because they can't survive a long gap between projects. In this case, Iron Lore, a PC-only RPG developer, was passed up for a sequel by THQ who instead was funding Big Huge Games (up until then an RTS company) to make a console RPG. Iron Lore began devising a pitch for a new console RPG as a result but it took too long to port the TQ engine over to console and they ran out of money before they could secure a deal.

So, like I said initially, there were other factors besides just piracy but it definitely played a role even if it was indirect. Hey, that's the way it goes I guess. I don't think agree with everything Brad Wardell had to say in his article "don't blame piracy" but I do agree with the concept that you have to assess the real market and budget for that. As that real market shrinks though, it just makes it that much tougher to create games that players with built up expectations will think worth playing. Hopefully we'll be able to do that. Our budget is already pretty **** small though and yet, I still wonder if we'll be able to sell enough copies to make a reasonable profit for everyone involved. Its a labor of love and, whatever the result, I'm glad we're doing it. If we are successful though, I think the future will be great for both us and our audience.

[DrFfreeze]

Hello,

I own TQ. I own IM. I bought my wife TQ Gold so we could play together. SWEET! It rocked and we had tons of fun. (Great job)

Her and I both played Diablo 2 and loved it too.

We live in the mountains and we have solar powered towers FM radios bouncing the internet to us. It is slower (400kb up/down) can go down for 3 to 14 days at a time. (ughh)

It doesn't look like we will be buying Diablo 3 as it is internet only for co-op. I found out the hard way if I am normally online with Steam and my internet goes down, I cannot use any of my software! (very frustrating)

Make a fun game that we can co-op together and we would love to give you money. =) Heck, let us know which one puts the most money in your pockets and we will try and purchase it though there.

Here is to me hoping I can give you some of my money,
Dr. Ffreeze

[medierra]

Hello,

I own TQ. I own IM. I bought my wife TQ Gold so we could play together. SWEET! It rocked and we had tons of fun. (Great job)

Her and I both played Diablo 2 and loved it too.

We live in the mountains and we have solar powered towers FM radios bouncing the internet to us. It is slower (400kb up/down) can go down for 3 to 14 days at a time. (ughh)

It doesn't look like we will be buying Diablo 3 as it is internet only for co-op. I found out the hard way if I am normally online with Steam and my internet goes down, I cannot use any of my software! (very frustrating)

Make a fun game that we can co-op together and we would love to give you money. =) Heck, let us know which one puts the most money in your pockets and we will try and purchase it though there.

Here is to me hoping I can give you some of my money,
Dr. Ffreeze

Hell, I'll mail you a copy myself it that's what it takes!

[yerkyerk]

A bunch of posts were moved here; http://www.titanquest.net/forums/off-topic/32491-piracy-drm-general.html

Let's try and keep this one on-topic.

I'm also very likely to buy the game, as IL did a great job on TQ (I'm not as certain about this as a specific member who wants to buy a 50 dollar toilet paper with Grim Dawn scratched on it, but still).

As DrFfreeze mentioned, I'm also interested to know whichever medium puts the most money in Crate's pockets, as I've never been fond of publishers getting all the money instead of the devs.

[ASYLUM101]

Hell, I'll mail you a copy myself it that's what it takes!

That's what I call a good-hearted company!

[medierra]

A bunch of posts were moved here; http://www.titanquest.net/forums/off-topic/32491-piracy-drm-general.html

As DrFfreeze mentioned, I'm also interested to know whichever medium puts the most money in Crate's pockets, as I've never been fond of publishers getting all the money instead of the devs.

We're pretty interested in that too and will let you know if we figure something out. ; )

It does seem pretty exorbitant that these digital distribution services take 30% just for putting your game up for download on their site. I mean, they do give you market exposure and provide additional services... but still...

[BeaverusIV]

@medierra: I wasn't trying to say that piracy wasn't hurting the industry, of course it is, even people who pirate know that much. I was trying to say theres a difference between stealing and piracy so people stop interchanging the terms.

Its good that you're going for a variety, I don't know what kind of deals you have to do with these distributors but getting as many on board to appeal to a wide audience is a no-brainer. Glad to see you know that ^^,

[khrotos]

I always thought digital distribution systems took a very small percentage, and retail was where most of the markup was (therefore, companies can sell the game online for the same price and receive more of the profits). 30% is insane for a download!

[medierra]

@medierra: I wasn't trying to say that piracy wasn't hurting the industry, of course it is, even people who pirate know that much. I was trying to say theres a difference between stealing and piracy so people stop interchanging the terms.

Its good that you're going for a variety, I don't know what kind of deals you have to do with these distributors but getting as many on board to appeal to a wide audience is a no-brainer. Glad to see you know that ^^,

The distribution deals for digital are generally pretty straightforward (it seems) but its more the problem that you have to submit a demo and go through an approval process and then do a little engineering work to support each service. The engineering work isn't a lot in most cases but it adds up and we don't have a lot of engineering bandwidth. So we have to carefully choose which services to support initially. After the initial release we may have the time and money to add support for additional services.

We're also definitely interested in trying to set up a mechanism by which people can buy direct from us. That's obviously in everyone's best interest if we can make it happen. We're new to the world of digital distribution though and I'm more designer than businessman, so I'm still exploring and learning about our various options.

[Mivo]

30% is harsh, especially if you take into account that some of these services also require special DRM measures, so you have to custom tailor patches for them. On the flipside, the exposure and "free" marketing you get from them is of valuable as well. (i.e. having a game promoted on Steam's front page does sell units). Tricky.

[BeaverusIV]

You can put me down for 2, and I know a friend irl who will buy and I've got an online Diablo 2 friend I will convince to buy too.

@Cironir: I think most of the money is for server upkeep and bandwidth used, its kinda like how stores have upkeep and thats why they claim so much (Plus they've gotten greedy).

[MadWasp]

Wow, lol...

Not kidding.


My words are true as pure bright prophecies.

"I'm blind but i can see...! :)"


New born slasher pleasures awaits us...

thx for official news wooohooo.... we got a new hope!!!!

Good work for every Crate boy/(girl?)!!!! I'm with you as a loyal costumer and fan of your style of ARPG gaming!

[yerkyerk]

I moved another few posts. Piracy and all is ofcourse interesting and sorta has to do with a gaming company, but there are dedicated threads for that, so let's keep this on-topic. Next piracy posts that are not directly related to the topic thread will be deleted.

[timobkg]

Medierra, could you tell us some about how you actually get paid for game sales?

For example, you said that online distributors take a cut of 30%. What about retail distributors?

What happens when a game goes on sale? Say Steam has a "Pre-order Grim Dawn, get $5 off" sale. Or, when the Grim Dawn expansion comes out, if they have a "If you've been living under a rock, get Grim Dawn in time for the expansion for 1/2 price" sale? Who's pocket does that discount come from?

TQ is still being sold. Who gets the money from that?

Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, I'm just trying to understand how the selling side of gaming works. And I think it will be useful for us to know, so that when time comes, we can chose to purchase the game via the channel that gets the most money to you guys. For example, if the $5 pre-order discount comes entirely out of your pocket, I'd rather pay the extra $5 and have it go to you.

[MadWasp]

Medierra, could you tell us some about how you actually get paid for game sales?

For example, you said that online distributors take a cut of 30%. What about retail distributors?

What happens when a game goes on sale? Say Steam has a "Pre-order Grim Dawn, get $5 off" sale. Or, when the Grim Dawn expansion comes out, if they have a "If you've been living under a rock, get Grim Dawn in time for the expansion for 1/2 price" sale? Who's pocket does that discount come from?

TQ is still being sold. Who gets the money from that?

Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, I'm just trying to understand how the selling side of gaming works. And I think it will be useful for us to know, so that when time comes, we can chose to purchase the game via the channel that gets the most money to you guys. For example, if the $5 pre-order discount comes entirely out of your pocket, I'd rather pay the extra $5 and have it go to you.


THQ gets money from TQ, TQ:IT, TQ Gold....

So its a real matter!

Ex-IL-Crate Entertainment should as you are the devs!!!! However marketing is marketing....rude rules have.

[medierra]

Medierra, could you tell us some about how you actually get paid for game sales?

For example, you said that online distributors take a cut of 30%. What about retail distributors?

Sure thing timobkg, get ready for a long read! Basically for us to get our game on store shelves we need to partner with a company (generally a publisher) that has distributor relationships. If I called up Walmart and tried to get them to buy Grim Dawn, for example, I wouldn't get very far. In order to sign a distribution deal with a publisher and be able to take advantage of their distribution channels, we'd need to give them a share of royalties. Even though they wouldn't be providing any funding for development in this case, small publishers I've talked to have said they typically expect about 30% cut. The problem is, retailers also take a cut. I've been told most major retailers like Best Buy or Walmart have a very low profit margin on games and music and such. The explanation was that they used those items to get buyers into the store where they would then try to sell them a printer cable with 34059730497% profit margin. However, I also know that publishers only expect to make somewhere around $18 to $25 a box on a $50ish range game.

If you take an advance on royalties to fund development you typically don't start earning royalties until after the publisher has recouped their loss and sometimes not even until they've earned a certain % of profit. Typically after earnout, a developer will get a cut of around 18-25% with the percentage often increasing after certain sales milestones have been passed. Now, that's not 18-25% of $50 but rather the $18-$25 publishers typically make per box. If the publisher goes nuts and decides to slash your box price down to $29.99 a month after release because initial sales were slow, (not that I've ever seen that happen... oh wait I have...) then you're not making much at all.

In this case we wouldn't be looking for funding, so we'd expect to pay out somewhere around 30%, about the same as digital except that the revenue per box would be less.



What happens when a game goes on sale? Say Steam has a "Pre-order Grim Dawn, get $5 off" sale. Or, when the Grim Dawn expansion comes out, if they have a "If you've been living under a rock, get Grim Dawn in time for the expansion for 1/2 price" sale? Who's pocket does that discount come from?

On a service like Steam, we get to act like the publisher (assuming we don't sign a deal with a publisher that includes digital distribution rights). The developer or publisher that put the game up for sale on steam has control over sales and such, not Steam. When the price is cut, both Steam and the developer / publisher are earning less per copy since the total revenue is split according to the royalty rates.



TQ is still being sold. Who gets the money from that?

THQ collects the revenue from TQ. Although I've been told they've earned a profit on the game now, it hasn't reached a point where ILE has been paid royalties and it probably never will. ILE still exists as a business entity even though no one works there, so if there were ever royalties, the owners would be able to collect them.

[The Rock-man]

Ouch so shop retail is not a good source of income from you figures on a $50 game your only get $3.24 to $6.25 per copy.
So its ~6.5% to 12.5% of the money spent ends up with the developers whereas the publishers get 36% to 50% of it (If it involves publishers) and the rest of it goes to the retailers.
As for retail promotions I do think some of the cuts come from the retailers pockets (based on RRPs and the price the game is selling for).
Your way of doing it means only losing ~30% of the sale price to distributors that better. Your get more per digital because cost per sell is less no CDs boxes etc to eat into the profit along with the retailers cut (even if it is tiny).
Also good to hear that on Steam etc. the price is controlled by the publisher (in your case your the publisher as thing stand) and promo cuts result in all party getting less money IE a 15% cut = 15% less for all.

[medierra]

As for retail promotions I do think some of the cuts come from the retailers pockets

It depends on who initiates the sale. Sometimes the cut does come from the retailers if they decide to have some storewide sale or lower their price to beat out a competitor on a hot product. Sometimes they even sell things at a loss just to get people into the store who might buy other stuff.

However, publishers also often make the decision to cut prices (which also cuts profit for the developer) because they need to keep games selling a high enough rate that retailers will want to keep it on store shelves. Stores only have so much space available and they want to make sure that space is occupied by products that are going to sell. This is part of the reason box sizes have gotten smaller - competition for space is becoming more intense. If sales start to dip, publisher may enact price cuts on their side to try to boost sales so retailers won't discontinue ordering / stocking the game.

This is part of what went wrong for TQ. Sales in the first month where much lower than anticipated and, based on the typical sales curve, THQ expected that sales would drop off sharply to virtually nothing in a couple months. They made a huge price cut in hopes of just selling whatever they could before retailers took the game off store shelves. However, sales didn't steeply drop off, they actually held steady for a long time. I think partially this is because there was virtually no advertisement to promote early sales but once word of mouth spread it kept sales happening at a decent pace. Unfortunately, by then the initial pool of customers was too small for word of mouth to really take off and the price at retail had been cut so much that only a small profit margin was being made.

[Cavar]

Sure thing timobkg, get ready for a long read! Basically for us to get our game on store shelves we need to partner with a company (generally a publisher) that has distributor relationships. If I called up Walmart and tried to get them to buy Grim Dawn, for example, I wouldn't get very far. In order to sign a distribution deal with a publisher and be able to take advantage of their distribution channels, we'd need to give them a share of royalties. Even though they wouldn't be providing any funding for development in this case, small publishers I've talked to have said they typically expect about 30% cut. The problem is, retailers also take a cut. I've been told most major retailers like Best Buy or Walmart have a very low profit margin on games and music and such. The explanation was that they used those items to get buyers into the store where they would then try to sell them a printer cable with 34059730497% profit margin. However, I also know that publishers only expect to make somewhere around $18 to $25 a box on a $50ish range game.

If you take an advance on royalties to fund development you typically don't start earning royalties until after the publisher has recouped their loss and sometimes not even until they've earned a certain % of profit. Typically after earnout, a developer will get a cut of around 18-25% with the percentage often increasing after certain sales milestones have been passed. Now, that's not 18-25% of $50 but rather the $18-$25 publishers typically make per box. If the publisher goes nuts and decides to slash your box price down to $29.99 a month after release because initial sales were slow, (not that I've ever seen that happen... oh wait I have...) then you're not making much at all.

In this case we wouldn't be looking for funding, so we'd expect to pay out somewhere around 30%, about the same as digital except that the revenue per box would be less.



On a service like Steam, we get to act like the publisher (assuming we don't sign a deal with a publisher that includes digital distribution rights). The developer or publisher that put the game up for sale on steam has control over sales and such, not Steam. When the price is cut, both Steam and the developer / publisher are earning less per copy since the total revenue is split according to the royalty rates.



THQ collects the revenue from TQ. Although I've been told they've earned a profit on the game now, it hasn't reached a point where ILE has been paid royalties and it probably never will. ILE still exists as a business entity even though no one works there, so if there were ever royalties, the owners would be able to collect them.

Jesus! It's almost not worth it to make a game.

It's good to know this info since I always had a skewed view on how that worked. I was thinking that when companies like Microsoft sold 2 million copies of a game for $50 a pop they saw more money than what you are indicating and while I am sure they may have a slightly better profit margin than a small developer, it's still not much.

I feel for you guys and appreciate what you do even more now.

Now it makes sense why recurring monthly fees and micro-transactions are such a big hit with the MMO industry. $5 bucks for some potions that are temporary and takes no new development really adds up.

It's too bad games like TQ didn't have DLC when it first came out or ILE may still be in business. TQ seems like a perfect game to be releasing DLC for.

Are you guys thinking of DLC or is it way too early?

C

[timobkg]

I think Microsoft may have an advantage, in that they are developer and publisher in one. Seems like a small studio is getting between 35-70% of the retail value of the game. And, if they're getting an advance on the royalties to fund the project, they're basically staying in the red from project to project.

I think Medierra said in an interview that it costs ~$14 million to make a major game. At that rate, if you publish directly to Steam, you're still looking at 400k copies sold before you brake even. If you add a publisher to that, and go through retail channels, that makes it 800k copies?

Definitely makes me appreciate what you guys do. I really hope Grim Dawn works out for you. It also makes me feel bad about those times I waited for a game to go on sale before buying it. :( I guess that was at least better than the alternative.

[~C~]

Hey Arthur - Grim Dawn, love it!

How's it going?

My 2 cents - I think digital is a great way for you guys to go. Personally, I like systems like jiaco described, where you can download the executable and then just buy a key to unlock the full version. If there was a service that allowed that and was secure enough that would be sweet.

Steam is nice because you can download your games to any computer, but man it can be annoying. We were going to play a LAN game of left4dead tonight for game night, but our internet connection went down and nobody could authenticate. Not fun.

- P

[Gorkk]

I think Medierra said in an interview that it costs ~$14 million to make a major game. At that rate, if you publish directly to Steam, you're still looking at 400k copies sold before you brake even. If you add a publisher to that, and go through retail channels, that makes it 800k copies?
Depends. Crisis cost $22 millions for a PC exclusive, Halo 3 $30 millions for Xbox 360, GTAIV for Xbox360 and PS3 $100 millions. Sacred 2 was budgeted at $20 millions, though that was before they decided to add the PS3 version, so most likely a bit more in the end, and they have had huge ongoing costs with the closed servers infrastructure (their network code was/is - as the game still exists - full of design flaws - like back to login each time you quit a game, two-way communication with server before sending a chat message, asking the server to change the selected skill, and that's just what you could actually see without even looking at the network code and infrastructure :p)

Overall clearly with all the informations you gave us medierra, although I'm not surprised, confirms that it's not at developing games that there's money to make, but at being the overpaid middle man :/

By the way, some people might not see how retailers margin be low and publishers get $18-$25 only on a game sold $50. If we take the $25 number, and compare it to the actual price before taxes, which would be something like $42 (around 20% taxes), it means retailers take anywhere in between 40% (publisher gets $25 out of $42) and 60% (publisher gets $18 our of $42) cut. I both ways it's much more than "minimal", but still less that what would appear comparing what the publisher gets to the retail price that includes taxes ;)


My 2 cents - I think digital is a great way for you guys to go. Personally, I like systems like jiaco described, where you can download the executable and then just buy a key to unlock the full version. If there was a service that allowed that and was secure enough that would be sweet.
That would be indeed very neat, and pretty much reduce drastically the distribution costs. Further more, it increases the chance that people looking for the game to pirate (emule search, search on torrents sites) would be likely to find the game files without any bypass, and if the packaging is done so that there's all the information in it to know where to purchase the key, it would probably help give more exposure to the game. Of course it all comes down to the key and unlock, but then no more than with a traditionnal distribution (the key being checked online if the user plays online, but simply checked as "valid" at installation - vulnerability to keygens of course, but enough of a deterrent for the lazy pirate I think).


Steam is nice because you can download your games to any computer, but man it can be annoying. We were going to play a LAN game of left4dead tonight for game night, but our internet connection went down and nobody could authenticate. Not fun.
I'd say that's why me and many others don't get games on Steam. Ability to download your games to any computer being offered by other electronic shops, there's alternatives.

PS: Nice to see old timers from IL come by. What are you up to now ~C~?

[~C~]

Hi Gorkk - it's great to see that many of you guys are still active in the community too!

I can't talk much about what I'm doing yet, except to say that I'm working on a really cool MMO project, which for an old networking guy like me is a little bit of heaven :D

[Gorkk]

Hehe, yeah, still many of us around TQ as a whole (personnaly had a long inactivity period on TQ.net, sticking on the French side for a while, can't be everywhere everytime).

Be sure to tell us more about what you're doing when you can, it's good to know what old ILEers have become :)

[Haay1971]

Been a long time since I visited this forum, but when I read somewhere else about former IronLore now Crate having a new ARPG in the pipeline, somehow I found my way here again. :razz:

Anyway, I was interested to reading this discussion about digital distribution of Grim Dawn. It made me wonder if the people of Crate (Medierra comes to mind) who are following and responding in this thread are also watching how Runic Games are going to distribute and sell their upcoming ARPG Torchlight (http://www.torchlightgame.com/) ???

Obviously they've been tackling with the same question and it will be interesting to see how well their game will sell, how heavily (or not?) it will be pirated.

I'm curious whether you (meaning the people of Crate) are actively following what competitors are doing and what is working for them or not?

[medierra]

I'm curious whether you (meaning the people of Crate) are actively following what competitors are doing and what is working for them or not?

Yeah, we're very interested to see what happens with Torchlight. Although I was surprised to learn that Torchlight is being released digitially but won't have any multiplayer. It seems like more of a hardcore audience that is likely to be interested in digital download but that also seems like the crowd that would be most turned off by lack of multiplayer. Maybe they're planning to be in retail also to but I haven't hear about that.

Well, whatever the case, I hope those guys do well for themselves. If they aren't successful, it certainly won't make me feel any better about what we're doing...

[medierra]

Hey Arthur - Grim Dawn, love it!
Steam is nice because you can download your games to any computer, but man it can be annoying. We were going to play a LAN game of left4dead tonight for game night, but our internet connection went down and nobody could authenticate. Not fun.

- P

Hey Paul!

I totally forgot about the MMO-company-with-sucky-internet-connection audience. ; p

Maybe we could set up some sort of alternative authentication system that instead of relying on the internet went through the postal service. When you wanted to play all you'd need to do is drop a letter in the mailbox and wait 3-5 days for authentication to go through. If people wanted to ensure a fast connection they could also elect to pay a premium for the next day delivery service.

Its AWESOME! (creepy) to see you're still keeping up on the forums! I'm looking forward to crashing your new office on Friday. ; )

[Haay1971]

Yeah, we're very interested to see what happens with Torchlight. Although I was surprised to learn that Torchlight is being released digitially but won't have any multiplayer. It seems like more of a hardcore audience that is likely to be interested in digital download but that also seems like the crowd that would be most turned off by lack of multiplayer. Maybe they're planning to be in retail also to but I haven't hear about that.

Well, whatever the case, I hope those guys do well for themselves. If they aren't successful, it certainly won't make me feel any better about what we're doing...

Well, from what I know is that the real game they want to actually make money with is a micro-transactions based free-to-play MMO game quite similar to Mythos which these people were developing for Flagship Studios / Ping0 before Flagship went down. For this Torchlight MMO game, which as far as I know is planned to come out in 2011, they will be using most of the already developed game-assets created for the single player Torchlight game. Selling Torchlight SP first will generate already some income until they will release Torchlight MMO...

Just an idea... Maybe they won't even care so much if the Torchlight SP game gets pirated a lot, because it will still spread the name of the game, and the hardcore players who enjoyed Torchlight SP will then more likely come to play the Torchlight MMO... Without a big advertising budget they might get Torchlight in the spotlights with a wide public that way, and get more players into their MMO game.

Besides that, with a 20 US$ pricetag for the Torchlight SP game I think they will still sell reasonably well to more casual gamers willing to pay for their games. After the initial digital download only, they're also planning to sell Torchlight in retail.

Anyway, I sure hope they'll succeed in their business model and be successful, proving that PC-gaming isn't dead and it is still possible to earn a living making interesting PC-games. And I sure as hell hope the same for Crate!

[BeaverusIV]

I think that could be an interesting concept.... Instead of having free-to-download demo, have a tiny full-game cheap-to-download that doesn't have as many features as your main game. Then when your main game comes out a few people would know about it.
Of course, the small game would be - say for TQ - no Legendaries, no fightable bosses, no orient or something (Something to give a whole game impression, so people get more of a feel than a what a level 5 cap does).

Does anyone know if referral systems really work? Like getting a discount on the retail game for how many referrals to the mini game you got?

[Torpid]

in reply to the idea of releasing more than half the game for free then charging for the full game later; S2games has done something very similar to that.

At first they created the game Savage 1 which did reasonably well in light of its small gaming audience. After a long while Savage 1 was announced as freeware to hype up the new coming release of Savage 2. This was done to spread the word about the Savage Franchise between the gaming community and to revamp the community population. S2games has implemented a rather interesting technique on keeping the community alive for Savage 2. In retrospect, the target audience for Savage 1&2 was rather small due to its high skill base and unique gameplay.

In order to keep the community population on a game-playable level, they released Savage 2 free to play with restrictions; restrictions that are extremely helpful for endgame activity (can't buy special endgame units, can't use extra special items). By allowing everyone to play to the end of the game, even those who hadn't paid $30 for direct download, the player population rose and kept the required player population above the minimum required for adequate gameplay.

http://savage2.com/en/main.php
Gameplay (clan battle): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG8gkY3yKEE

[khrotos]

edited because previous post was removed and so mine no longer made any sense

[yerkyerk]

@starkrun; I moved your previous post and deleted this one; it is not related to the thread OP, nor really with the discussion. Keep this on-topic please, there's enough threads with DRM issues...

[Bertil]

Yeah, we're very interested to see what happens with Torchlight. Although I was surprised to learn that Torchlight is being released digitially but won't have any multiplayer.

Well, whatever the case, I hope those guys do well for themselves. If they aren't successful, it certainly won't make me feel any better about what we're doing...

I'm playing the heck out of Torchlight right now. The price, great reviews and convenience of getting it digitally made it a no-brainer. It feels like a Disneyesque aRPG; simple, snappy and a downright blast to play. It's very cartoony (as I'm sure you've all seen), but that makes it a good counterpoint to TQ. Load times are laggy, unlike TQ, but that may be because I'm still running XP on my desktop. Windows 7 may boost this somewhat. I want to try it on my laptop, but I'm going to upgrade from Vista and add memory first.

Anyway, the title "Grim Dawn" leads me to believe that it will be a far different world. You guys may take your cue from Perfect World and streamline delivery. I think it's been a complete boon to their marketing strategy. Getting a game directly to the HD is a new experience for me, although I'd still like to still burn it to a disc and have it for the future. TL also "dumbed down" the system requirements to broaden the appeal, but that's an area where I hope you don't have to skimp too much. The TQ world is still amazing, visually.

[MadWasp]

Torchlight is far too childish and cartoony one. I hope Grim Dawn is NOT goin' to be a silly kiddish tale like title mentioned above....

True gore and true mature hack and slash awaits us. Huge massacre and experience hunting....

[yerkyerk]

Disney-esque fairy-tale hack'n slash? Ooooh yea!
UxfUNs8tCCg

[Renevent]

This one looks interesting too:

QDfpURJ_Uzo

Also this:

PNqOVD5uk3Y

[psylinx]

Lol Deathspank!

[MadWasp]

Greed looks also promising....ya

[Starkrun]

Greed has become a must buy... that looks fantastic... and it seems to be what Spacesiege should have been! And Fairytale Fights looks awesome, the fact that every slice from your weapon injures and kills your enemy uniquely each time is enough to make me want it.

and will see about Deathspank.. brutal legend was a busted P.O.S. of a game... Ive lost faith in the monkey people....

edit: read more about greed, want it more now... this is bad assery of the 9th dimension!

[nzone]

I recall Heavy Barrel [Data East] after seeing GREED. I like it. I'll buy one on the first day.

[BioshockArmy]

Can't wait to see Black Legion <3

[yerkyerk]

That's unfortunate, as Black Legion was postponed due to lack of funding, and now they're working on Grim Dawn - for the PC (which is very fortunate :D)

[Lithographer]

Is there any info on grim dawn anywhere? Why does the Black Legion guy still hang as a place holder on the crate site, do they hate xbox fans so much that they must remind us of what we'll never get? :errf: Again, is there any way I can convince you guys to bring this to a console... we're dying over here...

[The Rock-man]

^^ I think all the information in existence is on these forums apart from in C.E. offices etc).

[ASYLUM101]

Is there any info on grim dawn anywhere? Why does the Black Legion guy still hang as a place holder on the crate site, do they hate xbox fans so much that they must remind us of what we'll never get? :errf: Again, is there any way I can convince you guys to bring this to a console... we're dying over here...

Dying of what? Lack of games? That's laughable.

[medierra]

Is there any info on grim dawn anywhere? Why does the Black Legion guy still hang as a place holder on the crate site, do they hate xbox fans so much that they must remind us of what we'll never get? :errf: Again, is there any way I can convince you guys to bring this to a console... we're dying over here...

Its not that we hate xbox fans... well.. I guess there's no point in lying anymore. We do hate xbox fans. That is the sole reason the Black Legion guy is still on the website. I'd like to say that he's still up there in all his glory (which unfortunately is really only a very small amount of glory at this point) because we're having trouble letting go of what might have been. Or that he's up there because we're not quite ready to start releasing art from Grim Dawn. However, you're right, its none of those things, he is up here for the sole purpose of tantalizing the console audience out of sheer malice because your dumb console publishers wouldn't give us money.

I'm sorry it had to be like that. I apologize to innocent PC-audience bystanders who had to witness this ugly outburst. I'm glad though that the truth has finally come out. Too long have we toiled under the burden of this dark secret; suffering silently as we dined on the bitter ashes of our defeat.

No, really we've just been terribly busy and aren't quite ready to release any art... we'd be happy to make a console version though if you can find the money for us. ; )

[yerkyerk]

Yay for the glorious pc gaming master race :D
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/7664/45617314zi1mu6copypp8.jpg

[SoulSeekkor]

Oh Medierra, how I love thou humor so. :lol:

Soul

[Lithographer]

I knew it. :cry:

The only thing left for me to do is smash my xbox and ps3 and turn them into ashtrays...

[Lithographer]

Dying of what? Lack of games? That's laughable.


lack of a hack and slash rpg loot fest... (not a laughing matter)


there are tons of games on the consoles... but this one genre is practically non-existent. Sacred 2 was pretty **** close, but with ascaron gone and no support for the bugfestival that is this game along with an expansion that seems to have only caused even more problems...well you should get the point. After that the only thing the xbox has thats even close is a piece of **** game called arcadian warriors...which sucks more than the suckiest thing that ever sucked.

I guess I'm going to have to go back to pan handling on the runic website ... crap. :cry:

[yerkyerk]

I guess I'm going to have to go back to pan handling on the runic website ... crap. :cry:
Lol
If your system could run Titan Quest, you'll probably also be able to run Grim Dawn. If you couldn't run Titan Quest, well... perhaps it's time for you to be initiated to our glorious master race than :D

You could try Borderlands? Heh, completely different theme, but it's still a loot-driven RPG game :)

[The Envenomed Kiss]

Anyone besides me notice in the second clip of Greed that one machinegun skill is exactly like the one from Hellgate London? (sorry can't remember the name right now)

PS.) Medierra where the hell is the donate button on your site man? :p

[Lithographer]

Lol
If your system could run Titan Quest, you'll probably also be able to run Grim Dawn. If you couldn't run Titan Quest, well... perhaps it's time for you to be initiated to our glorious master race than :D

You could try Borderlands? Heh, completely different theme, but it's still a loot-driven RPG game :)


My system can run circles around titan quest... I just want something I can slap in the ol xbox or ps3 and take full advantage of my couch, girl friend, and assorted food items. I really dont want to have to build a pc for the living room...

I've played the crap out of borderlands... they did somethings really well...but I hate how they have "playthroughs" and didn't just go the diablo route of levels of difficulty. The world is huge but has limited encounters and I think the beastiary can be counted on one hand. I also got the DLC for it... but it came with no new loot? Can you imagine... that being said with only three loot items that can be customized and no outward appearance changes.... the game gets dull quickly.

I just want a good ol diablo clone ... tons of loot, lots of bosses, online play, and the means to level up till my girlfriend gets pissed off and turns off the tv. It seems like way too much to ask for on a console. :D

[sinohptik]

I guess im lucky in that i just ran a long cord from my PC to my projector as well as my TV :) They also have many HD wireless solutions that work extremely well, but they are far from cheap ($1000.00us and up).

Either way, there are a few games out there that are a bit similiar. Im guessing you have played all of them, but who knows.

Torchlight (This game has never-before-seen mod support, already)
Baldurs Gate (any of them, watch out for price gouging)
STALKER (more in the vein of borderlands, no multi)
Dragon Age: Origins (lacking in the loot department, but mods will fix that)
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (either one, console)
Mass Effect (not really what you are looking for, but tons of loot, console)

I think all are SP, but really, beggars cant be choosers :D as i have learned. Most are PC only as well, which, at least in my situation, is certainly better.

now back on topic!

Is there any sort of time frame for release of this game? I actually just came across it when i registered on this forum, and really cant wait!

[medierra]

Is there any sort of time frame for release of this game? I actually just came across it when i registered on this forum, and really cant wait!

We're currently shooting for late 2009 / early 2010 but its too early in the project to set a firm date.

[sinohptik]

So possibly later this year? Thats pretty exciting news! Is there anywhere with screenshots or anything like that?

[medierra]

Not yet... but there may be soon ; )

[sinohptik]

Not yet... but there may be soon ; )

I cant wait! It is also excellent for developers to keep in touch with their home community like this. It is something that is becoming increasingly rare as people such as bobby kotick are starting to run things. I truly hope more in the industry start acting like Crate Entertainment. Kudos!

[yerkyerk]

We're currently shooting for late 2009 / early 2010 but its too early in the project to set a firm date.

Yay, Grim Dawn christmas presents this year :D

[Lithographer]

They also have many HD wireless solutions that work extremely well, but they are far from cheap ($100.00us and up)


you sir are a mega super ultra double triple genius ... and have changed my world.

That being said ... Grim Dawn in aught nine? Relax there fella, seems like 09 is almost done no need to rush... besides I've work to do. :nerd:

[yerkyerk]

I think it was supposed to be late 2010/early 2011..

[sinohptik]

you sir are a mega super ultra double triple genius ... and have changed my world.

That being said ... Grim Dawn in aught nine? Relax there fella, seems like 09 is almost done no need to rush... besides I've work to do. :nerd:

Dont know if you are being sarcastic, but i truly hope i did help :) If you need anymore assistance with it, let me know in a PM (i am an A/V consultant/speaker builder/calibrator, etc)

[sinohptik]

I think it was supposed to be late 2010/early 2011..

I was thinking it was a typo as well, but there is always hope :D

edit: well, im used to posts being auto-merged, my apologies :)

[Renevent]

Yeah, could ya hurry the hell up a release some screen shots already?!?!?!?

Geeze...

[XXY]

Just finished playing some TQ, and I hope grim dawn will be at least a fraction as badass as TQ is. But I know you guys are extraordinary at making games and that its gonna totally kick *** just like TQ is :rockon:

Also, If you add a donate button on your website I wouldn't mind sparing a few €'s :P

[medierra]

Yay, Grim Dawn christmas presents this year :D

Haha... you guys aren't going to like this but uhh... I think I was a little tired when I wrote that.

Add +1 to all dates... :whistle:


*activates Stone Form*

[Zemekus]

Haha... you guys aren't going to like this but uhh... I think I was a little tired when I wrote that.

Add +1 to all dates... :whistle:


*activates Stone Form*

NOOOOO!!!!! lol

[Bertil]

Take your time and make the best possible game. What's the hurry? We'd all like it to be out already but I'd much rather be dazzled than disappointed.

To tell the truth, I'm still enjoying TQ/IT. I could play through a few more times without a trace of boredom...and I've already dedicated 6 full days of my life to it. Sometimes, I just marvel at the world and the love of gaming that went into creating it. I can sit and watch my son play it instead of playing it myself. I wonder how it didn't become a "must have" for gamers of all ages. When I think of how much I've spent on other games and realize that I've only invested $25 in this masterpiece, it boggles my mind.

Recreate that type of experience and we'll be there. The Iron Lore experience will mean something in the marketplace, just as the Blizzard background helped create a buzz for Torchlight.

[yerkyerk]

Yes, slogans as "the spiritual successor to Titan Quest" and "from the creators of Titan Quest" will probably be a good form of marketing.
I think it was a year ago from now than I saw TQ on offer for 10 bucks on Steam - and it was the #1 sold game that period. Although that might be due to TQ players buying the game for friends :)
And I can still find TQ in stores (unfortunately not IT), as opposed to a lot of newer titles.
We get new avid TQ players on this site everyday and the community's still strong.
Besides, most people who played it view it positively - the userscore on metacritic is an obvious hint for that.

So, it makes me think the TQ titles have reached a lot of people, more than you'd expect when simply looking at its profit.

[Lithographer]

ok... instead of making a 360 or PS3 port, how about just adding gamepad support...I'm playing titan quest with the 360 controller and its....not the greatest. If it had native support...well...that'd be tits.....right?

[medierra]

ok... instead of making a 360 or PS3 port, how about just adding gamepad support...I'm playing titan quest with the 360 controller and its....not the greatest. If it had native support...well...that'd be tits.....right?

That's certainly something we could look into for the future, although, however good of a job we do supporting it, I doubt it will ever be nearly as good as tits.

[Lithographer]

Nothing ever is. However should you perform this meager task I will have the ice cream house of your choosing create a cake in your honor.

[Renevent]

Ok medierra...enough is enough. It's time to release some game footage. You have until 5pm est today or I will be forced to take drastic action. I'm not sure what that will be exactly...but it could involve rubber hoses and duct tape.

[XXY]

I think we'll get some content as a Christmas present ;>

I hope :happy:

[medierra]

I think we'll get some content as a Christmas present ;>

I hope :happy:

or maybe something to bring in the new year ; )

[Chameleonic]

How far along is this game? Will it be released before say D3?:whistle:

Is there anywhere I can go to see more about this? It sounds promising.

[The Rock-man]

How far along is this game? Will it be released before say D3?:whistle:

Is there anywhere I can go to see more about this? It sounds promising.
Release dunno, as for more about it sorry think e very known scrap is in this thread already.

[XXY]

How far along is this game? Will it be released before say D3?:whistle:

Is there anywhere I can go to see more about this? It sounds promising.

Medierra said around end of 2010/beginning of 2011.

[oneeyered]

This is very good news indeed.

[leahzero]

Though I'm a late comer who just picked up Titan Quest this holiday season and has been playing the hell out of it (was inspired to revisit this genre of gaming by the recent release of Torchlight and upcoming release of Diablo III), I absolutely love TQ, and was inspired by the craftsmanship of the game to find more titles by ILE. After learning of the studio's closure and subsequent rebirth as Crate, I'd just like to say, best of luck, guys--can't wait to play your new games. <3

[Chameleonic]

I tried searching but didnt find anything...what is the setting for Grim Dawn?

Is there any news at all about what is happening? Or is it like Blizzard with D3? lol


It would be nice to see some current/relevant info in the first post of this tread or a sticky with info...

[medierra]

More information will be available soon...

[MaDMaN]

Yo yo!

Wooot wooot! I heard about Grim Dawn beeing developed by ancient ILE (from a friend) and I Had to check this post :D
I just went through the entire post, I am very happy that i did, and to see that you guys are back and kicking, you did an awesome work with TQ, no matter what the media said, and I Can't Waaaaait to play Grim Dawn on ps3, and maybe later on PC to make some mods if that is okay with you guys :D

I wish you the best of luck and I am sure this game will be even better! :happy:

Go go Crate Entertainment! :headbang: Best developers ever! :headbang:

[yerkyerk]

For somebody who just read through the entire thread, you haven't paid a whole lot of attention :)

Grim Dawn is a PC-release only.
Crate first focussed on Black Legion for the consoles, but couldn't get the necessary funds. So they licensed the TQ tools and are now working on Grim Dawn.

Perhaps there'll be a PS3 port though...

[MaDMaN]

Awww, i must have missed a page then >.< my bad!

I did my best to read it all, took me 30 mins, but i may have missed that part >.<

Well i hope the piracy doesn't affect it, it is my main concern as a fan when it comes to PC games, i love this dev team, and i want them to keep producing good quality games, similar to TQ and better. That is what i meant.

My wishes remain thou, i want them to succeed and provide us with a good game, no matter the platform, ultimatly PC to modifiy it and make interestin variants like it was the case for TQ.

Cheers.

PS: thank you yerkyerk for pointin it out, i totaly missed that fact *waves the white flag*

[Chameleonic]

More information will be available soon...

Yay.

I know there is NDA agreements and all that...but some info would be nice. :D

:pray: Hopes soon means days, not weeks/months.:pray:

[therani]

Yay.

I know there is NDA agreements and all that...but some info would be nice. :D

:pray: Hopes soon means days, not weeks/months.:pray:

I took it to mean, "We haven't made a final decision about these things yet" rather than "It's top secret...we could tell you but then we'd have to kill you."

[Rhis]

It just means he doesn't want to tell you.

[MadWasp]

Bingo. Informative. :)

[Renevent]

Suck ***. I had my appendix rupture on Christmas day and the only thing that kept me going in the hospital was the hope for Grim Dawn information for the new year.

You crush my hopes and dreams Crate Entertainment...if it wasn't for the morphine drip I would have been really pissed.

[medierra]

Suck ***. I had my appendix rupture on Christmas day and the only thing that kept me going in the hospital was the hope for Grim Dawn information for the new year.

You crush my hopes and dreams Crate Entertainment...if it wasn't for the morphine drip I would have been really pissed.

Perhaps this will help ease the pain - http://www.grimdawn.com

May your dreams endure...

[Renevent]

Perhaps this will help ease the pain - http://www.grimdawn.com

May your dreams endure...

Whew...I was so close to ending it all...thank you good sir.

:p

[Nefer]

The Site looks so mean! Grim Dawn logo and everything! Crate Entertainment and GD FTW!! ;)

[yerkyerk]

Nice :)

[Chameleonic]

Perhaps this will help ease the pain - http://www.grimdawn.com

May your dreams endure...

Thank you.:rockon: