PDA

View Full Version : Does being a Hunter ever stop sucking?



amiantos
07-05-2006, 10:20 AM
Admittedly I'm only a few levels into my Hunter/Earth build. I've played through almost all the game as Warfare (pure, nearly), but so far I am terribly underwhelmed by my hunter.

I hoped to be archery only, but it looks like I might not have a choice? Anyone care to weigh in on this? Mainly I just need reaffirmation that being a bow-wielding Hunter wont suck the whole game. It is nearly impossible to hit an enemy at range and not be swamped by six other enemies. I just don't see this working the whole game unless I can manage to spam long lasting traps on eight enemies at once.

So far it seems like bows are not worth it unless you can eventually kill things in one hit. I hope that will be true eventually, especially with fire damage on arrows thanks to Earth mastery.

Oddly enough Hunter/Earth is kind of the build I played in Guild Wars (until I got real sick and tired of having to rely on other people to be able to play), enchanting my arrows with fire and killing tons of stuff. It seems that archery was a lot more powerful or easier to do in Guild Wars. I'm not sure what is "wrong" in TQ, exactly, it just doesn't feel right. What is the point of archery when you pretty much end up having to treat it as a very slow melee weapon?

Oh, and having to pretty much equally distribute all of my skill points into all three attributes and my health and energy kind of sucks but I guess I can get used to that. I already read that there were no high-dex armors (and have seen this myself) so I'm a little worried about that.

Anyway, just want to hear from some Hunters and what their thoughts are.

Jack McCandless
07-05-2006, 10:31 AM
Well if you could kill everything with your bow and it never had a chance of getting close to you, what would be the point in being anything but an archer?

If you're hunting / earth, why not summon a core dweller, or throw some netting down, or otherwise employ skills to give you more time to let your archery tell?

Or have you tried this and found you still get swamped - in which case you'd definitely have my sympathy?

CorwinB
07-05-2006, 10:36 AM
I tried pure Hunter (hybrid bow/spear) but at level 18 I had to drop a couple of points into Nature (summon wolf) since Monster Lure doesn't work well for crowd control...

Against most enemies, my focus on Pierce damage and attack speed seems to be giving decent results. Not sure how this will scale up, though.

Mivo
07-05-2006, 10:36 AM
I found my bow-huntress a bit tedious up to level 20, especially since scatter shot and volley have a low'ish proc chance. Once I picked up storm as my secondary mastery (higher kill speed = fewer red pots needed), things improved quite a bit. Still, as a hunter you have to kite a lot, snipe, run around, etc. I like the style, usually. :) I don't know about epic and legendary, but we'll see. I'm not rushing. :)

amiantos
07-05-2006, 10:39 AM
Well if you could kill everything with your bow and it never had a chance of getting close to you, what would be the point in being anything but an archer?

If you're hunting / earth, why not summon a core dweller, or throw some netting down, or otherwise employ skills to give you more time to let your archery tell?

Or have you tried this and found you still get swamped - in which case you'd definitely have my sympathy?

I'm an extremely low level (7), and I didn't mean to come across as a whiner, though I know I did.

Mainly, my bow seems totally useless, which is what I planned on primarily using. I was just looking for a little emotional support from people playing as Hunters, because I'm going to assume that bows don't stay so useless all the time.

And the point of killing stuff with a bow in one hit is to stay alive. The point of ranged attacks is so that you can technically be weak health-wise and still slaughter things, without being swamped by mobs and killed instantly. (AKA: Balancing. If I screw up my technique and get swamped by monsters I SHOULD die, that is my punishment for being an archer. Or my roleplaying reason for being an archer.)

Basically, as it seems at this low level, there is no reason to NOT be Warfare, which bugs me. As warfare at this level I'd be slaughtering things in a few hits and taking hardly any damage. As hunter at this level I am just getting my butt handed to me, it takes longer to kill things with a bow and I am taking more damage. It doesn't seem... balanced, at least at this low of a level.

In theory I should be able to kill things quickly and efficiently as a Hunter, just as I can as Warfare. That's just my stance.

Edit: I guess I'll be taking Storm as my secondary, looks like that's a popular pick on the forums. I have a lot of boring/difficult/obnoxious levelling ahead of me. :( Maybe the patch will fix something.

Edit: Actually, looking at the skill list, Hunter/Nature might be a good idea.. with the Briar Ward thing, heart of oak, wolves/nymph, etc... anyone wanna weigh in on this?

CorwinB
07-05-2006, 10:44 AM
Low level is extremely low risk for most builds, but killing speed at low level is really, really dependant on the gear you find. I did the demo as an archer twice, and the second time I had the luck to find a nice starter bow very early on, which made my killing speed skyrocket.

A bit of farming the early majestic chests (the centaur, the spider boss...) should help a lot for your killing speed...

IMsabbel
07-05-2006, 10:55 AM
Hunters ROCK.

I could do the titan boss in 15 seconds, without getting a single point of damage. Farmed him 20 times or so.
BOWs KILL.
Its really tedious until you get your hunting mastery up for scattershot and penetrate.

Dont waste your points on low-level skills, push your mastery until you get those, and use the synergies.
At some point, it REALLY starts to get off.

Dulak
07-05-2006, 11:04 AM
I'm making a spear hunter; pretty fun so far ...

Begging area is pretty easy compared to other classes because of the buff you get. I hate fighting undead thou; piercing damage doesnt do much vs them.

Going to group it with defense or warfare not sure which yet.

Spiritraiser
07-05-2006, 11:04 AM
Well, I am 29 level on the way to China and still haven't picked a secondary mastery! :O

Well, that is for 2 reasons as I wanted all bow skills that help and also because I am still undecided! Problem is that even though some mobs go down very easily even when too many there are some occasionally some that own me but that is more because I focused in damage than resists/defence. Getting better bows is problem at times but I keep trying. I will keep going without second mastery until I can't do it and have to choose one (or until I decide which to pick) :)

Unactuality
07-05-2006, 11:09 AM
I have two spear hunters, 43 and 33. Slayer & Warden.

They kick ass, and a lot of it. My Slayer can take down epic Typhon in 5 or 6 seconds, counting from the first hit to the last.

I know you're looking more at bow than spear here, but Hunters definitely don't suck by any stretch of the imagination. Especially not once you get the top tier skills.

spiral.sin
07-05-2006, 11:24 AM
My current project is a Ranger (Hunting/Nature). Only level 10 at the moment, but it's going ok. Not as "sexy" as my Druid character but it's early yet. So far I have Wood Lore (increased attack speed/defense) and Marksmanship (increased damage/projectile speed) maxed out.

I think with any "weapon dependent" class, your performance depends on your gear. Casters have the edge here because they can rely on their spells more than their weaponry. However, once you do find that "uber" weapon it can literally change the game.

I've heard before that Hunting is a slow starting skillset, but once you progress further it really comes into its own. I'd say just be patient. With the right skills and gear, I'm sure things will improve.

Of course, if you need instant gratification, you may want to look elsewhere.

Sapphire
07-05-2006, 11:27 AM
I have a level 22 hunter and still loving it. I concentrated my points in the core damage dealing talents for bow hunting so I could dish out damage while getting to volley asap. Around level 16 I found a blue bow, which really enhanced my DPS. After I got that I began farming the 3 gorgons and the cave behind them, then selling to the guy at the end of the cave. Was very fast and efficient and I got some other nice upgrades that way. I found a blue spear with wonderful stats so I made it my second weapon and threw a point in takedown and eviscerate. On monsters like maggots and zombies I use the bow, and on mobs like beastmen I use the spear. It's really fun switching weapons. I love the way skeles shatter from my bow and cat ladies fly a few feet when I whack them with my spear. I have never used a trap. At first I had to kite strong enemies a bit but now I just mow everything down. It's almost too easy, but I like it that way.

Being a hunter is so much fun I haven't picked up a second mastery. I only worry about 2 things in the later game: (1) withstanding massive physical attacks since I have no pets, and (2) I'd like to have additional sources of AOE damage. So right now I am researching secondary masteries to determine which would best meet my needs in that regard.

amiantos
07-05-2006, 11:29 AM
Thanks guys for the words. Will definitely stick with it, thanks for all the support!

Blackjack
07-05-2006, 11:33 AM
I'm a 24 Hunting/Earth combo (Avenger). I put just a few extra points into the Core Dweller and its buff skill, and he can take a heckuva lot of beating. Mostly I let him take the swarms and fire like crazy. :) I do still have to run away now and then.

If swarming's still a problem, you can drop a couple decoys too and let them take the beating.

I wouldn't hesitate to experiment with the Mystics now and then. It's funny how many posts say "so and so class sucks!" I've seen them on almost every class and class combo. Either it's a sign the game is well balanced (hey, everything sucks! :)) or people are really impatient. :)

Dulak
07-05-2006, 11:42 AM
Unactuality,

You got both a slayer and a warden huh?
Which do you like better?
I'm working on a hunter and trying to figure out which class to group it with ie defense or warfare; Hard to decide ...
I'm worried about less defense and lack of crowd control if I take warfare ie shield bash provides some crowd control with the 50% slow on them ...

Granted warhorn is some crowd control but the recast timer is just too long to rely on it much. Same with battle standard; if the recast timer was 1/2 as long on both then they would have alot more use.

What's your take on the whole defender vs warfare argument in regards to your hunter?

-edit-
oh I forgot to ask I assume you are using a shield and spear for both? or warfare going dual wield?

TAsunder
07-05-2006, 02:12 PM
This may be a bit of a hijack but I am feeling very underpowered at level 32 as a brigand. Tigers and Dragon archers in the orient totally spank me. Even on other things I am often using a health and energy potion every battle just to stay alive. All the enemies seem to be absurdly fast moving. They can virtually keep pace with me despite about 30% speed bonus when I use a bow. My shield gives another 10% or so speed bonus, so as a spear+shield user I can outrun them. Fat lot of good it does to be able to outrun them with a spear.

I don't feel like this is a balanced option, rogue + hunter. Monster lure is literally worthless since monsters just ignore it almost always. They are more likely to attack my traps than my lures. Even when they do attack the lure it only affords me about 1 second before they are back on me like a pack of rabid wolves. My main strategy to avoid potion gulping every battle is to drop a trap and run in circles for several minutes.

What is going on here? This is ridiculous. My two friends can just tear through these enemies. One friend said his tank pet does get killed quickly by dragons, but he doesn't have much problem with them. He's got a 240 dps staff and can shoot 3 fireballs at a time with it. Meanwhile the best bow I've found is around 150 dps and it takes 4 shots to kill an enemy. So in the time it would take to kite an enemy, my friends can be halfway across the map in some extreme cases.

I'm also wondering exactly what flush out is supposed to do. It says it costs 10 energy but there appears to be no way to activate the skill. Does it just automatically get applied to study prey?

What exactly is defensive skill? I get some 40% bonus to it but I can't really say as it does anything. Unless I constantly kite I lose half my life to even weak enemies. Nevermind the tigers that lightning bolt me and stun for 4 seconds then kill me a second later.

The good news is that bosses are really easy for me, at least.

At this point I do not feel like brigand is a viable build. Someone please advise me on this, as I am becoming so frustrated that I am literally yelling at the screen. It doesn't help that every so often I click and it doesn't respond. I'm assuming that's a bug that will be fixed.

Dulak
07-05-2006, 02:27 PM
I really like melee builds also Tasunder; and I'm finding some of the same issues with some of them ie the orient and lack of crowd control is really tough to deal with.

dont really have any suggestions in regards to your build; a pure archer like you are is a pretty tough build to do solo IMO; while like you said bosses or group play I would think he would excel in.

Sapphire
07-05-2006, 02:40 PM
Yeah the problem I see with hunter and rogue together is that it's just more of the same. I prefer a second mastery that helps shore up my weak areas, and single target damage dealing isn't one of them.

Scotchy
07-05-2006, 02:41 PM
as for the brigand guy, I was level 30 when I beat the titan, I have a DPS of 410, and my max crit is 4639~ I think Brigand is FAR overbalanced if you ask me, however do to the lack of resistances I have to admit I get pwned in epic cause of no pierce resistance when 6-7 shooters hit me :P

TAsunder
07-05-2006, 02:46 PM
Hm... what are your tactics like scotchy? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong. Should I be trading incredible blue items for a yellow item with 20 more armor?

Unactuality
07-05-2006, 05:34 PM
Dulak,

Both characters use spear and shield.

Overall, I like the Warden better. This is somewhat biased by the fact that she's using gear acquired by the Slayer's trip through the game, which was my first. The survivability difference is still enormous, though. I've smashed through the game up to halfway through Epic Oriental so far with 4 deaths total - 1 to carelessness with a dragon boss, 2 to the manticore, and 1 to a sarcophagus.

The Slayer does crazy amounts of damage, but survivability is not nearly as good. He's up to Athens in Greece on Legendary but playing him feels like work, and he chugs potions constantly while fighting.

Once my Warden is in Legendary, I'll be more confident in my comparison, but so far Warden wins, hands-down.

I find the percent-chance shield attacks to be more powerful and useful than Onslaught, especially the AE one and Shield Bash. Collossus is absolutely wonderful, while Ancestral Spirits are only useful as short-lived distractions. Maybe if I dual-wielded I'd like my Slayer better, but then there wouldn't be much point to the Hunter mastery. Study Prey is awesome, but I don't think it's worth taking a Mastery for by its own.

I didn't take the 1st tier activatable shield attack, by the way, and haven't really felt a need for it.

Naithin
07-05-2006, 06:52 PM
I'm playing a Ranger (Hunter / Nature) at the moment, and I love the char a lot. Bow is my primary weapon, but I've also got maxed out wolves. 1-7 I worked on maxing out Wood lore, and getting the beginnings of Marksmanship.

When I hit 8, I took nature, 1 pt into mastery, 1 pt into Regrowth (which became my right click pet heal, or emergency heal on myself if pots were too slow) and 1 into the wolf.

From then on for a bit, I typically put one point into marks til I felt comfortable with the projectile speed, and the other two into the wolf skill. Having them out there *really* helps with mob management, they tank surprisingly well. I'm lev 28 now, and have enough +nature equipment to let me summon 3 level 18 wolves without the aid of a mastery shrine.

Ohh, one other thing I did at some point relatively early, is get the nature mastery up to 4 pts, and invested 1 pt into the Heart of Oak buff. The Totalspeed buff on that is fantastic, and if you find you really really have to - you shouldn't, I haven't needed to as yet - can raise it further for a higher buff to your hp amount.

In terms of my hunting tree, I've got marks fully maxed, although I query now whether that was totally necessary. The + to pierce dmg however is very very nice though, considering how much dex we tend to have. :)

And I'm closing in on maxing penetrate as well. Began raising hunting mastery itself again also to get Scattershot and Volley.



Now though, how do I go if I don't have the wolves out? I take more damage for a certainty, but it is usually tolerable. Also, I can one shot most normal mobs, 2-3 at most for harder ones, minibosses (yellow, oranges) can sometimes take a few more.

With wolves out it's just slaughter. :)

Oh, another good skill to consider is Art of the Hunt. After I get scattershot to a respectable level, gonna work on AotH and it's upgrade. :) I haven't found it to be a requisite just yet, but will be fantastic to have before Epic, I would think.

skinnybeans
07-05-2006, 07:09 PM
im finding brigand to be a rather underwhelming combination. i think scotchy is a melee hunter by the sound of it (otherwise wouldnt have seen crit numbers). For a bow based hunter its pretty sucky. I wish i could choose another second mastery instead of rogue :(

Shiver
07-05-2006, 09:10 PM
The Slayer does crazy amounts of damage, but survivability is not nearly as good. He's up to Athens in Greece on Legendary but playing him feels like work, and he chugs potions constantly while fighting.

Can you try using top level War Wind with a spear and see how it works? It seems to me that Take Down on a mage or champion + War Wind on the group should be able to reduce most mobs to rubble before you even start using melee attacks.

medierra
07-05-2006, 09:54 PM
Hm... what are your tactics like scotchy? Maybe I'm just doing something wrong. Should I be trading incredible blue items for a yellow item with 20 more armor?

If you're using bow as primary weapon with brigand try maxing out nightshade and also consider getting delirium or flashpowder to cause confusion / fumble. These can be highly effective as offensive-defenses.

Flashpower works even better for melee oriented characters.

skinnybeans
07-05-2006, 10:16 PM
medierra, currently nightshade doesnt work with ranged attacks. is this intended or a bug?

neurro
07-05-2006, 10:27 PM
Don't be discouraged with how Hunting is going for you at level 7. My defender sucked until level 12 when I had some decent gear and his skills started coming into place. I think the Melee/Physical masteries are slow to start (some slower than others) unlike the Magic masteries. Just got to give them some time to mature.

Dulak
07-05-2006, 10:39 PM
Glad to hear that unactuality ... helping me make the decision easier ie warden ... so you find the defenders skills much more useful then the warfares for use with the hunter ya? ie batter vs warwind and the shield passives vs onslaught line ...

Unactuality
07-05-2006, 10:42 PM
It does, Shiver. War Wind works very, very well with a spear, and it's one of the skills I use most on my Slayer. Take Down -> War Horn -> War Wind, then pick them off.

Unfortunately, the biggest killers in regular gameplay are (as usual) not melee damage but arrows and elemental damage, which are usually at least partially out of range of war wind. The 25% missile avoidance helps a lot, but Legendary is still frustrating.

I'm about to finish Epic on my Warden, so I'll come back here and compare the two in Legendary probably tomorrow.

There's a Legendary spear out there that grants the War Wind skill, actually... I've been drooling over that one at gamebanshee for my Warden =P

Dulak: One thing I love is having two charge skills. It helps a LOT with battlefield mobility, which is what keeps you alive when you have archers shooting at you. I don't use Batter. It might be good, but I don't feel a need for it. I feel that Shield Charge + the passives make up for War Wind pretty well. I also like passives better than active skills. War Wind has a fairly long cooldown, while Shield Charge's is much shorter plus it stuns, AND you always have a 16% chance of an area effect shield hit.

Srikandi
07-06-2006, 02:16 AM
With hunter (primary) storm (secondary), I did great up to early Epic... where I started running into equipment difficulties.

Still, I see the bow hunter's main issues as this: upping dps, and crowd control. Both of these can be addressed in a variety of different secondary masteries.

I chose Storm as secondary, because Storm Nimbus adds damage, and because several stills slow/stop enemies.

My net was enough for CC until I got storm up a bit. It was a very successful build up until mid-Act I of Epic, at which point the conflict between maintaining sufficient dex for bows and sufficient strength for armor started to become a problem. Since the storm skills I needed didn't use a lot of Int, I went for melee instead of caster armor. This can be overcome by wearing "light" (minus req) and +str armor, but that takes away from resists etc. I've dropped that char for the moment, but I plan to get back to her; I'm sure this is soluble.

This char used spear for bosses, traps and other high-HP single-target enemies, but bow is her main attack, and it's been working great... except for the armor divide :p

Jagadance
07-06-2006, 03:12 AM
With hunter (primary) storm (secondary), I did great up to early Epic... where I started running into equipment difficulties.

Still, I see the bow hunter's main issues as this: upping dps, and crowd control. Both of these can be addressed in a variety of different secondary masteries.

I chose Storm as secondary, because Storm Nimbus adds damage, and because several stills slow/stop enemies.

My net was enough for CC until I got storm up a bit. It was a very successful build up until mid-Act I of Epic, at which point the conflict between maintaining sufficient dex for bows and sufficient strength for armor started to become a problem. Since the storm skills I needed didn't use a lot of Int, I went for melee instead of caster armor. This can be overcome by wearing "light" (minus req) and +str armor, but that takes away from resists etc. I've dropped that char for the moment, but I plan to get back to her; I'm sure this is soluble.

This char used spear for bosses, traps and other high-HP single-target enemies, but bow is her main attack, and it's been working great... except for the armor divide :p

The hunter armour problem is really something I think needs to be addressed.

I've managed to get to Babylon with my Hunter/Storm, but there's just no armour upgrades available for me. Ever. Every single item that drops is red. There's nothing in any shops in Epic that I can actually wear. I even ported back to Helos to see if there's anything in that shop I can buy, and the only piece of armour that wasn't red for me was a plain white pair of bracers. There just doesn't seem to be enough attribute points to go around. Hell, the only reason I can even use the horn bow I'm using is because the helm and torso armour I'm wearing has like +39 dex on them, and I thought I was pumping dex too much when I levelled. Even if I wanted to wear some "light" mod armours to reduce requirements, I can't because the str requirements for those are too high.

God forbid I want to, you know, actually put some attribute points into my health or energy points. As it is right now, trash mobs are launching some attacks at me that cause the death gong to go off before I even know what's happening. A big reason is that I don't have enough resists because anything I see with resists I can't wear, besides rings and amulets.

It's sad, but I might have to go back to normal difficulty in early egypt or something to try and shop for some armour pieces in a desperate attempt to try and cover my energy needs, low health problem, resists problem, item requirement problem, and hope that all of it has the mods like +attack speed and +movement speed that hunters also need to be effective.

Ok sorry, rant over.

Jack McCandless
07-06-2006, 07:12 AM
-Are there d2 style 'synergies' for skills?

Sort of. There are some skills that have natural direct synergy (earth enchantment gives +x% fire damage, so it boosts all your fire spells) and there are skills with upgrades. Anything that links on a tree is upgrading the first skill in that tree; it's not a stand-alone skill. What you won't get is some funky bonus to Volcanic Orb from learning Flame Surge. If you want a funky bonus to volcanic orb, you need to take Combustion, the "let's give VO a funky bonus" skill.


-How well do Rangers scale towards the higher difficulties? I'm thinking wolves are good in normal but will they last more than a few seconds on legendary?

My minions all got stronger, not weaker, when I moved from normal to epic. How will they fare in legendary? Hard to say. But they seem to be well enough balanced for the first two difficulties so I'd expect the trend to continue.


-The wolf skill 'Maul' says in-game it takes off 6% of mob health, but the IGN talent tree says it only causes bleeding and piercing damage. Which is it? Also, is the 6% damage a fixed amount taken off base health, or 6% of mob health remaining (which would be worse).

The in game description is correct. Most internet site information is either plain wrong or grossly out of date, don't rely on it.

My experience with % damage based on health type skills is that it goes off max health. Sometimes my team will get infested with Plague, which deals damage in this way, and the damage doesn't seem to drop off as my health gets lower.

On the other hand, I have some ways of causing this effect and I've never seem it work on a boss. It's great for champions, but as far as bosses go, either it's heavily reduced, it just plain doesn't work, or I'm missing something.

prod
07-06-2006, 07:16 AM
thanks a lot for your reply Jack :) very helpful

TAsunder
07-06-2006, 12:30 PM
Supposing I had unlimited funds to respec my brigand at level 32. Any suggestions for builds? I'm not really picky as to bow vs spear, but I would probably like bow a lot if I didn't have to run for 3 minutes every battle.

Sounds like I underestimated flash powder. What about poison bomb and throwing knife? Useful for a bow user?

hostage67
07-06-2006, 08:16 PM
I have a Hunter/Rogue build and am at lvl16 right now. I am doing just fine, everything except major bosses die in 1-2 shots for me. I have not done any farming at this point in the game, I am just running through the game normally and haven't even played online yet, just single player so literally all of my gear has been found or purchased.

I still use a relatively crappy bow...
6-23 damage
12% life leach over 3 seconds

I'm looking at finding a new bow now, and you may ask how I am killing everything in 1-2 shots with that bow lol. Here are a couple of tricks that will help you...

1. Use those charms, I currently use the one that adds fire damage(I think it's 27 fire damage over 3 seconds), the completed bonus on that charm is also +8% speed. These make a huge difference in the effectiveness of your weapons.

2. Synergies. Use skills from your secondary mastery to make you more effective and that work in conjunction with your primary set. Focus on mostly passive skills as they effect everything you do.

I chose hunter as my main because I wanted to be primarily a bow user. In order to make her more effective as a bow user I also picked up Rogue. The reason I picked up Rogue is because I can now passivly add on a massive amount of additional poison and bleed damage(along with a few other nice states). I currently show a very low DPS which appears to only reflect physical damage(or instant damage). However I have a ton of DoT's that help significantly. When I shoot any enemy they are almost always dead by the time they reach me because of my dots. I only shoot each enemy once then move to the next one, if I have time I will shoot them a second time but most of them are dead before I can get a second shot off on the set and usually before they ever reach me(yes this includes most minor boss mobs).

I had a little trouble with major bosses like cyclops before I got my synergies worked out and figured out exactly where I wanted to go with my build, but now I kill most guys very quickly and bosses are relatively easy. I can't stand toe to toe with the bosses but even when I am not shooting at them I am still causing damage because of my dots :).

TAsunder
07-06-2006, 08:47 PM
Well I reorganized many of my skill choices to concentrate on scatter shot, volley, nightshade, and flash powder. Now I'm getting my butt handed to me 10 times worse than before. Flash powder is worthless versus ranged attacks. I still have to run around like an idiot constantly just to survive. My only chance against ranged attacking dragons is to lay traps and run or chug lots of potions... was I the victim of a prank or what?

Saber Cherry
07-06-2006, 09:00 PM
Well I reorganized many of my skill choices to concentrate on scatter shot, volley, nightshade, and flash powder. Now I'm getting my butt handed to me 10 times worse than before. Flash powder is worthless versus ranged attacks.

Gas Bomb is great against ranged - read its description!

skinnybeans
07-06-2006, 09:14 PM
as i have already posted, nightshade doesnt work with bow attacks at the moment. im shelving my brigand until this gets fix (if it gets fixed). as it is i spend most of my time shooting in melee than at range. mobs move too damn fast and there is no way to keep them off you.

i went back and played my summoner and had lots more fun, i think that as a ranged class the hunter is a bit broken later in the game. i would respec to a melee brigrand but my stat distribution wont really allow it (too low str to wear decent armor)

TAsunder
07-06-2006, 09:31 PM
I wish they would allow a one time change to your class choices. I feel totally gipped by brigand and I don't feel I should have to be experiencing this level of frustration in a game. I play the game for 20 levels, I should get some level of flexibility in my choices.

I don't know who would possibly enjoy this combination except maybe masochists or people looking to play an extremely time-consuming, difficult class with minimal reward. It's kind of pathetic to spend so many hours only to have a single choice negatively influence your future in the game.

Just throwing aside the notion that perhaps I simply haven't found the viable combination of skills. I have spent about a million gold just trying to respect, by the way. Nevermind the chunk of change for potions, since I drink two every 5 seconds or so. Let's just talk about hunter in general.

At this point in the game almost every enemy is faster than I am even with a speed bonus. If I want to run and gun, I need to be incredibly precise with every mouse click, because a deviation of 3 millimeters has unforseeable negative consequences since I am made of paper. If I miss my move-to click spot I just stand there. Also, if I hold down the mouse button to shoot for a split second too long, my character shoots another arrow despite the fact that I do not want this, which means even if I click to move my guy will shoot another arrow and get me killed.

The irony of ironies is that ranged enemies are actually my weakness. I, a hunter, whose specialty is ranged weaponry, have enormous difficulty out shooting a single lich or dragon archer. They do significantly more damage percentagewise to me than I do to them. Really? I swore I just killed a telkine, and yet a dragon archer is my equal.

In order to be effective (i.e. kill things at the same quickness as any other combination), I have to constantly cast spells that eat away at my energy, so if I drop a trap and cast flash bomb, half my energy is gone by then practically.

The very thought of spending 15 hours getting back to where I am in the game just because a particular combination is far too difficult and challenging is very much a turn off. I might just shelf this game and play with a ball of lint at this point.

This isn't real life, why do I have to be stuck with a bad decision like this? I thought I played games to have fun. Why can't I just switch my class whenever I feel like it and respec? Or at least pay some amount of money to change my profession. In real life I can get a different job or go back to school. In this game I click one thing at level 20 and I am doomed for life.

TAsunder
07-06-2006, 10:07 PM
OK, thanks to whoever suggested investing almost entirely in traps. That has helped quite a bit. I have about 5 points in hunter and the rest in traps, and it's working quite well. I'm basically just a rogue.

skinnybeans
07-06-2006, 10:19 PM
ok i tried to post this once and it stuffed up so ill try again...

here are a few problems that need to be resolved to make brigands actually work

1. make nightshade and the other posion upgrades work with bow attacks.

2. introduce a line of dex based armor for rogues and hunters.

3. improve bow attack speed. lots of hunter abilities are % chance on attack. The problem being we dont get many attacks before the mobs are right on top of us. often the cool abilities like bleeding wont get a chance to work.

4. improve scattershot so it does a % of the bows total pierce damage instead of a fixed amount. fixed amounts of damaged never scale well unless you can drag out the amount of points people need to pump into it. eg in d2 you had skill syngerys so you could spend 40+ levels increasing one skills effectiveness. scattershot maxes out after 3 levels worth of points.

5. make volly more reliable. currently hunters can deal nice damage if the enemies walk single file toward you due to shots passing through. however if they fan out at all you have no effective way of dealing with them. again if nightshade worked you could probably kite them into a line and do decent damage as they followed you. perhaps make volly an active ability with a small enery cost.

skinnybeans
07-06-2006, 10:20 PM
OK, thanks to whoever suggested investing almost entirely in traps. That has helped quite a bit. I have about 5 points in hunter and the rest in traps, and it's working quite well. I'm basically just a rogue.


yeah id rather not do this...

TAsunder
07-06-2006, 11:59 PM
yeah id rather not do this...

Me neither but it is better than yelling at the computer constantly!

Andrew005
07-07-2006, 12:40 AM
I'm thinking of making a Hunter, how should I allocate the attribute points? I was thinking Dex/Str Dex being my main and the ocassional boost in health. I was wondering how much energy I should give him also, I don't want to screw up too badly.

Shiver
07-07-2006, 02:14 AM
1. make nightshade and the other posion upgrades work with bow attacks.

That would be fantastic.


2. introduce a line of dex based armor for rogues and hunters.

Give them more equipment options, but definitely not more AC. Rogues and hunters aren't meant to be able to take hits.


3. improve bow attack speed. lots of hunter abilities are % chance on attack. The problem being we dont get many attacks before the mobs are right on top of us. often the cool abilities like bleeding wont get a chance to work.

Don't really agree as that would turn archers into modern infantry. It would be nice if the game shifted away from Improved Attack Speed bonuses on equipment.


4. improve scattershot so it does a % of the bows total pierce damage instead of a fixed amount. fixed amounts of damaged never scale well unless you can drag out the amount of points people need to pump into it. eg in d2 you had skill syngerys so you could spend 40+ levels increasing one skills effectiveness. scattershot maxes out after 3 levels worth of points.

Totally agreed.


5. make volly more reliable. currently hunters can deal nice damage if the enemies walk single file toward you due to shots passing through. however if they fan out at all you have no effective way of dealing with them. again if nightshade worked you could probably kite them into a line and do decent damage as they followed you. perhaps make volly an active ability with a small enery cost.

Volley is good as it is. If there aren't additional enemies for it to hit, it strikes the same one three times. And it works with spears too! How is that not good enough? I'd say Volley is the best weapon pool talent in the game.

Jagadance
07-07-2006, 02:38 AM
Volley is good as it is. If there aren't additional enemies for it to hit, it strikes the same one three times. And it works with spears too! How is that not good enough? I'd say Volley is the best weapon pool talent in the game.

Volley definitely need to have a greater chance of going off than it does now. It's way too random to be reliable, at least for bows.

hostage67
07-07-2006, 02:41 AM
Nightshade appears to be working fine for me and my bow. If you respeced and still were using traps and gas bomb then you spread your skills out too far. If you are going to go for a bow character you really need to focus on the bow and not the other frivilous skills in the game.

If you expect to kill people in 1-2 shots then all of your skills need to be focused on making your bow more effective, otherwise you run into the problem you did where you are just as bad or worse off. I'd be happy to play with you some and show you what equipement I am using and explain my skills and why I chose them if you would like. I will be on in about an hour or so if you are interested just message me on xifire(hostage67).

I also do have a weapon set that I do switch to on the rare occassions that I am forced into melee range. That weapon is actually more effective than my bow is, but it forces me into melee range and I have to start pumping potions. When using my bow I take very little if any damage the majority of time. And I love facing archers, hit each one with one shot and move to the next, they sit there and shoot until the poisons get them which is usually only 1-2 shots after they get hit.

I do have some stuff that I consider to be pretty decent gear, but like I said in my previous post everything I have has been obtained by playing through the game normally. I haven't played online yet so it's all been single player based and I haven't gone back to farm any loot at this point so unless I got incredibly lucky I should have roughly the same quality gear you do.

I should also point out that you shouldn't expect this build to be a great character early on. This will only be an average character in the early to mid levels. You really won't be able to see the major benefits to this build until the later levels. The math for my build and the equipement I am looking at getting shows potential for an extremely deadly character in the later game especially in PvP or when facing single targets.

Jagadance
07-07-2006, 02:43 AM
Nightshade appears to be working fine for me and my bow. If you respeced and still were using traps and gas bomb then you spread your skills out too far. If you are going to go for a bow character you really need to focus on the bow and not the other frivilous skills in the game.

If you expect to kill people in 1-2 shots then all of your skills need to be focused on making your bow more effective, otherwise you run into the problem you did where you are just as bad or worse off. I'd be happy to play with you some and show you what equipement I am using and explain my skills and why I chose them if you would like. I will be on in about an hour or so if you are interested just message me on xifire(hostage67).

I also do have a weapon set that I do switch to on the rare occassions that I am forced into melee range. That weapon is actually more effective than my bow is, but it forces me into melee range and I have to start pumping potions. When using my bow I take very little if any damage the majority of time. And I love facing archers, hit each one with one shot and move to the next, they sit there and shoot until the poisons get them which is usually only 1-2 shots after they get hit.

I do have some stuff that I consider to be pretty decent gear, but like I said in my previous post everything I have has been obtained by playing through the game normally. I haven't played online yet so it's all been single player based and I haven't gone back to farm any loot at this point so unless I got incredibly lucky I should have roughly the same quality gear you do.

What difficulty level are you at? I'm guessing not late Epic.

Edit: NVM I just read your previous post. Disregard this one.

skinnybeans
07-07-2006, 03:00 AM
Give them more equipment options, but definitely not more AC. Rogues and hunters aren't meant to be able to take hits.


yeah thats what i was getting at. its very annoying seeing just about everything red at vendors.



Don't really agree as that would turn archers into modern infantry. It would be nice if the game shifted away from Improved Attack Speed bonuses on equipment.


there needs to be some consistant way of taking advantage of all the points that you sink into skills. Currently you just cant get enough shots off before mobs are on top of you, meaning lots of the % based hunter abilites dont trigger as they are rather low % (bleeding, volly)



Volley is good as it is. If there aren't additional enemies for it to hit, it strikes the same one three times. And it works with spears too! How is that not good enough? I'd say Volley is the best weapon pool talent in the game.


the problem is that hunters have no way of dealing with mobs that are not lined up. you only get to hit 1 mob per shot and with the slow attack speed of bows you might get to get 2 hits in before your swamped.

i agree that for spear hunters its fine, but bow users need a better way of spreading out their damage across advancing hordes! id even be for reducing the damage of the extra arrows in exchange for upping the proc chance.

I forgot about monster lure + detonate! getting those working would be nice too.

all in all its hard to say exactly what changes need to be made because there is just too much broken stuff atm. fixing 2 or 3 might solve alot of the problems.

Sapphire
07-07-2006, 03:58 AM
I'm thinking of making a Hunter, how should I allocate the attribute points? I was thinking Dex/Str Dex being my main and the ocassional boost in health. I was wondering how much energy I should give him also, I don't want to screw up too badly.
You need to consider what you want for your secondary mastery. You shouldn't need much energy at all with straight hunting, potions will suffice, but a your secondary might eat up energy fast depending what you get.

prod
07-07-2006, 04:35 AM
You need to consider what you want for your secondary mastery. You shouldn't need much energy at all with straight hunting, potions will suffice, but a your secondary might eat up energy fast depending what you get.

I just waited to find a good vendor energy ring, then slapped a completed hecate's relic on it. I've not put any points into energy so far and this ring has almost doubled my total energy - i've now got way more than i need.

edit: I'm a 15 ranger (hunter/nature) with two points in the nature healing cast. I don't use potions anymore.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c286/proddo/energy_ring.jpg

Galamere
07-07-2006, 04:40 AM
You need to consider what you want for your secondary mastery. You shouldn't need much energy at all with straight hunting, potions will suffice, but a your secondary might eat up energy fast depending what you get.

I could not agree on this point more, I'm rather kicking myself ATM because I started Defender and droped lot of my points into (in order) DEX, Health and lastly STR.

Then I picked my secondary, Earth, now I love this build myself, I think it's evil incarnate (although I have heard much the same about Earth/Storm and Defender/Storm, but I digress) but I find myself alsmot forced into melee at times because of low mana/INT (more caster and hitting harder, respectively) and have just now began to devote a good number of points into these stats, although they are still secondary to my holy trinity, as it were.

The same problems I've found arose with my hunter when I branched him into rogue. The excessive use of Flash Powder, Traps, Thrown Daggers and my own Nets was a harsh blow that eventually forced me to shelve that character for the time being. I must admit I'm quite tempted to delete him and start fresh now that I have a higher lvl character under my belt and know what to expect (bloody undead archers >.<)

now I've been hearing tales of the poisions not being brought through the arros properly, as well as the fragments from the Scatter Shot not taking with them your aura buffs (be it Earth, storm or the like) is this true? If so then I'm defiently going to hold off playing an archer until a patch or two come out.

Galamere
07-07-2006, 04:47 AM
I just waited to find a good vendor energy ring, then slapped a completed hecate's relic on it. I've not put any points into energy so far and this ring has almost doubled my total energy - i've now got way more than i need.

Nice, I'd forgoten all about that bloody charm, I've had one collecting dust in a bag for a bit now, I'm going to go hunting for a nice green ring and see if I can luck out as well, too bad you can't enchance the blue items you find, that urked me a bit when I came across a Brimstone (very nice ring) it's done wonders for me, but still bugs me I cant make it that much better now that my memory's been re-kindled. My neck is also filled with such an item (I forget the name, grants you Blade Honeing)

prod
07-07-2006, 04:50 AM
Nice, I'd forgoten all about that bloody charm, I've had one collecting dust in a bag for a bit now, I'm going to go hunting for a nice green ring and see if I can luck out as well, too bad you can't enchance the blue items you find, that urked me a bit when I came across a Brimstone (very nice ring) it's done wonders for me, but still bugs me I cant make it that much better now that my memory's been re-kindled. My neck is also filled with such an item (I forget the name, grants you Blade Honeing)

same. I was dissapointed on reading the relic description 'Can enhance ANY weapon/armour' etc and then not being able to put relics on my blues. :(. I mean it's not as if it'll make me much more overpowered - i'm already in need of a nerf :P

Terrawen
07-07-2006, 06:18 AM
I was dissapointed on reading the relic description 'Can enhance ANY weapon/armour' etc and then not being able to put relics on my blues.

They do it this way to encourage us using them rather than hoarding them, I suppose.

Though, it would add a whole 'nother level of character customization if we could actually add these things to our optimal equipment. As in, Blues and up. Finding the correct relics and charms and then trying to get the correct completion bonus. Would be fun, I think, creating entire suits of equipment tailored exactly to your character.

/shrug

Jack McCandless
07-07-2006, 06:20 AM
As far as I know, blues were originally enhancable by relics and charms, but they removed it because it was too powerful. A shame though, that would have been really fun.

prod
07-07-2006, 06:27 AM
As far as I know, blues were originally enhancable by relics and charms, but they removed it because it was too powerful. A shame though, that would have been really fun.

yeah i'd imagine a legendary epic bow with IAS and a full achilles relic would be vastly overpowered. oh well :(

TAsunder
07-07-2006, 08:58 AM
Nightshade does not work with bows, if at all, in that no enemy has ever been slowed by it.

I'd be curious to see how anyone can effectively play a bow user without constantly retreating. And if they are constantly retreating, I would like to see how they can do even that effectively without frequent errors due to mouse precision requirements.

It's great to say just focus on bow skills. What would those be? There aren't really that many skills that improve the viability of being a bow user the way that traps improve the viability of being a bow user. My traps have 75% of my life and they draw enemy attention, allowing me to plug them with arrows. They also do more damage than I could do by myself with any skill combination. They are more effective at luring mosters than the monster lure.

Dakaine
07-07-2006, 11:15 AM
Hey ho, i can say Hunter rox, i´m pissed that i didnt choose nature, because my second masterie is earth, but when you got the golem skilled it´s at least usefull.

Ok listen:
My hunter is LvL 47 with the full blue hunter-set got nice stats, very usefull getting trough legendary, i farmed the full set at typhon epic.

I got 1 legendary ring and amulett and a very nice legendary bow..... my hunter got 1748dps and i´m happy with that !

prod
07-07-2006, 11:18 AM
I'd be curious to see how anyone can effectively play a bow user without constantly retreating. And if they are constantly retreating, I would like to see how they can do even that effectively without frequent errors due to mouse precision requirements.


I kill things in one hit with my bow. Enemies hardly reach me , casters go down in two hits and bosses can be trapped with ensnare, or kited. If there's a group of enemies i run away a little to get them in a line and shoot a few piercing arrows at them - they cut through the whole group.



It's great to say just focus on bow skills. What would those be? There aren't really that many skills that improve the viability of being a bow user the way that traps improve the viability of being a bow user. My traps have 75% of my life and they draw enemy attention, allowing me to plug them with arrows. They also do more damage than I could do by myself with any skill combination. They are more effective at luring mosters than the monster lure.

Marksmanship / puncturing arrows / scatter arrows. Wood Lore for increased attack speed. Art of the hunt maxed is also great for pierce damage.

If you've put all your points into traps no wonder your bow doesnt do much damage. Find a nice blue or green one with increased attack speed and enhanced damage.

TAsunder
07-07-2006, 11:33 AM
prod what level is your highest hunter? Is it the 15th level one? Of course you can kill everything with one or two hits at level 15. I could do that too. I was chugging along and loving the game until the last third of the orient. At that point, about a third of the enemies are faster than I am, do more damage, and can take minutes to kill as a brigand, plus I drink two potions every few seconds. Compare this to my caster friends who click two buttons and the whole mass of enemies is dead.

I tried focusing on numerous hunting skills and rearranging skills to various suggestions on this forum. Only after trying 4 or 5 different builds of bow hunter did I give up and try putting everything into traps because someone suggested it here.

Anyone who is level 30-40 should see what it's like when you put everything into traps. It really is ridiculous. I get hit rarely and kill enemies in seconds. I think I have been below half health once in 2 hours of play (excluding typhon), including a large section of the first act on epic. Typhon was really easy considering it was my first time fighting him. Once I learned his pattern I just dropped traps and ran and never got hit. Ever.

Scatter arrows are worthless at this point. The fragments take maybe 10% of nearby enemy life if I am lucky. The combination of study prey, 2 traps, and gas bomb with traps maxed is significantly better than anything I could possibly do with a bow build.

Viperace
07-11-2006, 03:18 AM
TAsunder,

I was watching this thread for awhile , but didn't reply because my Bow Brigand is still low levelled. I just beat Normal last night at lvl 32, so I guess its time to share something.

Hunter never suck, if you don't compare him with the overpowered Storm/Nature or something.

I was having fun after reaching lvl 22 onwards where my built has matured. I love to drop a whole mob with two shots , where Puntured Shot or Volley proc. Mob usually drops before they could reach me, even if they do catch me,I wont be afraid to go melee with them. The only problems that I have are the Draconian Casters mob and Tigerman casters duo :rockon: . I dance around to avoid their projectile and shoot back (ignoring the melee guy), thats the time when I need to spam 2 to at most 3 potions. Other time , I drink potion casually, only carry around 20 potions everytime. So far haven't had a single death after lvl 15.

My plan is
Hunter tree
max Volley, Woodlore, Study Prey.
1 point to Marksman -> max Puntured shot -> max Scatter Shot


Rogue tree
1 point to Envenom Weapon -> max Nightshade

These are the core essential skills, I add a couple of points into poison/bleed.
The trick is to train a mob, Punctured Shot them and slowing them with Nightshade. That way the mob are being slowed and you have time to run/shoot.

And.. no, I didn't do farming, I just play normally. My DPS with bow is just barely 200.:(

In future, I will be maxing bleed or poison skill and see how it goes. Might take Art of Hunt too, or even Traps to lure mob. Soo many possible combination, I dont believe it will suck

Feel free to discuss further.
Good Luck


EDIT: I don't understand why some of you said Nightshade don't work with mob. It works on my game. Are we playing different version ;) ?

Toology
07-11-2006, 04:16 AM
study prey, imo, is probably the most needed skill in the whole hunter tree, make sure you guys don't forget to max it... it'll make taking down bosses alot easier

Mivo
07-11-2006, 01:37 PM
Anyone who is level 30-40 should see what it's like when you put everything into traps. It really is ridiculous.

I have a "trapper", my pet project. It is true that traps are awesome in this game, at least once you get Improved Firing Mechanism. I don' know how they'll do later on (but I'll find out), but yes, traps do rock. :)

TheEskimo
07-11-2006, 01:49 PM
Yes, they stop sucking.

I maxed marksmanship and have a lot of items that give me plus arrow speed, and so all of my arrows reach there target in probably less then a 1/4 of a second. For bosses, I shoot a few times, run to the side and dodge magic and shoot again.

skinnybeans
07-11-2006, 10:15 PM
EDIT: I don't understand why some of you said Nightshade don't work with mob. It works on my game. Are we playing different version ;) ?

really? well maybe i should go and check this again.... i know that when i shot mobs they didnt seem to slow down a noticeable amount but when i hit them in melee it was very noticeable.

ill respec my hunter and try again.

skinnybeans
07-11-2006, 10:45 PM
ok sorted it out. the poison does work with ranged attacks but the reason i thought it wasnt is because it seems to slow their attack more than their movement, or its more noticeable for their attack.

Saashadog
07-11-2006, 11:07 PM
Well if you could kill everything with your bow and it never had a chance of getting close to you, what would be the point in being anything but an archer?



Given that this is exactly what caster characters are able to achieve, I don't see why the hunter should be any different.

I've played an Ice Shard (storm)spec through normal and a little into epic and it is only rarely that something actually gets to touch him.

From what I read, hunters seem to often end up getting swamped and become little more than melee characters without the strength to wear good armour.

Saashadog
07-12-2006, 12:09 AM
Give them more equipment options, but definitely not more AC. Rogues and hunters aren't meant to be able to take hits.



I disagree. At the very least, the dex based characters should be able to wear armour at least as good as the int based casters. This doesn't appear to be the case.

CorwinB
07-12-2006, 02:33 AM
I disagree. At the very least, the dex based characters should be able to wear armour at least as good as the int based casters. This doesn't appear to be the case.

What would be neat would be Dex-based armors which do not increase Armor Class by a lot, but rather Defensive Value (perhaps even percent-based) and Dodge Projectiles. That would go better with high-Dex builds. You avoid more hits, but hits that go through hurt a lot more.

Kiyoko
07-12-2006, 07:19 AM
TAsunder,

I was watching this thread for awhile , but didn't reply because my Bow Brigand is still low levelled. I just beat Normal last night at lvl 32, so I guess its time to share something.

Hunter never suck, if you don't compare him with the overpowered Storm/Nature or something.

I was having fun after reaching lvl 22 onwards where my built has matured. I love to drop a whole mob with two shots , where Puntured Shot or Volley proc. Mob usually drops before they could reach me, even if they do catch me,I wont be afraid to go melee with them. The only problems that I have are the Draconian Casters mob and Tigerman casters duo :rockon: . I dance around to avoid their projectile and shoot back (ignoring the melee guy), thats the time when I need to spam 2 to at most 3 potions. Other time , I drink potion casually, only carry around 20 potions everytime. So far haven't had a single death after lvl 15.


this is exactly what i've experienced with my brigand. up until lvl 19 i had to kite every single monster which made my progress pretty slow. Yesterday I got to lvl 24, maxed volley and piercing and found some nice equipment. Now it feels almost like playing a MS bowazon in D2. A couple of shots and entire groups of monsters falls to the ground. of course this doesn't say anything about how I will fare later but at the moment life is good=)



My plan is
Hunter tree
max Volley, Woodlore, Study Prey.
1 point to Marksman -> max Puntured shot -> max Scatter Shot


Rogue tree
1 point to Envenom Weapon -> max Nightshade

These are the core essential skills, I add a couple of points into poison/bleed.
The trick is to train a mob, Punctured Shot them and slowing them with Nightshade. That way the mob are being slowed and you have time to run/shoot.

And.. no, I didn't do farming, I just play normally. My DPS with bow is just barely 200.:(

In future, I will be maxing bleed or poison skill and see how it goes. Might take Art of Hunt too, or even Traps to lure mob. Soo many possible combination, I dont believe it will suck

Feel free to discuss further.
Good Luck


basically the same plan as me:) I do wonder though, people are saying that Study pray is so awesome and a must have skill but isn't it far to hungry on energy to be viable against normal mobs? i could see it being very useful for bosses but since you spend 95% of your time killing mobs, isn't this what you should focus on?