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Mazzox
05-04-2007, 10:29 AM
Hiya all =)
Im semi new to TQ:IT And i'd like to make a new Elementalist character who uses Lightning attacks as his/her main source of damage in the Storm tree.
Is this a viable option ? Or is all the power in the ice tree ? I would aprreciate a link or example build for a viable lightning using elementalist.

My current plan is this:TitanCalc by stonedonkey - A Titan Quest Calculator - Elementalist (http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Elementalist&master1=8&master2=1&m1=32-0-10-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-12-8-0-12-0-0-1-1-12-8-0&m2=32-12-0-1-0-0-12-1-16-0-1-1-0-1-0-1-0-12-0-8-12-0)

Also, does static charge also improve lighning damage or just the damage of storm nimbus ? (Storm nimbus also effects staff attacks.. right ?)

I imagine these questions have been answered elsewehere but I'm having trouble finding them.. =S

Being quite a noob i'd also appreciate some suggestions on how many points to put into attributes and what skills to pump first ect.

hentai
05-04-2007, 05:45 PM
It is viable but only if you reduce recharge time by 100%, otherwise you will be doing a LOT of running around.

hentai
05-04-2007, 05:47 PM
Also, does static charge also improve lighning damage or just the damage of storm nimbus ? (Storm nimbus also effects staff attacks.. right ?)


I was wondering about that too but I gave up on asking questions because it's obvious the forum is dead.

MILJAAR
05-04-2007, 06:12 PM
i have a prophet build (storm/dream) with storm as main mastery
and it's perfectly viable to have storm spells as your main type of spells
since you're going to be the caster type: you have to add attribute points to intelligence (and a very small portion to dexterty to wear the suits)

static charge improves ALL lightning damage, so
- lightning spells get better
- weapons with lightning damage get a higher dps

hentai
05-04-2007, 08:33 PM
But still, Dream has the best spells-->distortion wave + squall as main offense and distort reality for killing anything that remains standing. I don't really see the benefit of using lightning since it can't even get close to damage that distortion wave has as well the area of effect and it takes 3x times longer to recharge lightning than distortion wave.

The only thing that would make lightning better than distortion wave would be items that reduce recharge time by 100%, but I played 5/6 of the game and only came to 25% reduced recharge time. I don't thinks it's possible to reduce recharge time by 100% and even if it is possible you would still spend 90% of the game without instant recharge time, thus making lightning spell in relation to distortion wave very poor indeed.

Giest118
05-04-2007, 11:45 PM
It is viable but only if you reduce recharge time by 100%, otherwise you will be doing a LOT of running around.

As an Elementalist, if you're not running around anyway, you get killed.

Also, why 100%? 80% sounds more than sufficient. 100% reduced recharge time is for people who plan on standing still to spam-cast spells while large mobs eat them alive. Call me the stupidest person on the planet, but that sounds kind of... not fun.

mamba
05-05-2007, 07:00 AM
The only thing that would make lightning better than distortion wave would be items that reduce recharge time by 100%, but I played 5/6 of the game and only came to 25% reduced recharge time. I don't thinks it's possible to reduce recharge time by 100% and even if it is possible you would still spend 90% of the game without instant recharge time, thus making lightning spell in relation to distortion wave very poor indeed.

You can reduce recharge time by 100%, you need a certain set of items to do so though. In any case, my Archmage Clasp already gives -45% recharge by itself, I get another -15% from my Hesiones Veil (both items were among the most frequent drops for me), no mage should be without them ;)

For all intents and purposes -80% recharge time will be enough, you won't actually need to get to -100%, my -60% is enough for me, and I get that from generic gear, not specialized in -recharge (just overall best gear).

Oh, and if you think Dream has the best spells, you haven't tried Storm yet, it has way better spells.

Mazzox
05-05-2007, 09:39 AM
For all intents and purposes -80% recharge time will be enough, you won't actually need to get to -100%, my -60% is enough for me, and I get that from generic gear, not specialized in -recharge (just overall best gear).

Oh, and if you think Dream has the best spells, you haven't tried Storm yet, it has way better spells.

Sounds good enough to me.. Could you suggest a viable dream+storm (with lightning) build for me ?

mamba
05-05-2007, 11:51 AM
Sounds good enough to me.. Could you suggest a viable dream+storm (with lightning) build for me ?

My build actually is an Oracle (Storm + Spirit), I haven't played a Prophet (Storm + Dream) yet, I created a level 60 one and experimented a bit with it, but that is it.

Personally I do not think that Storm + Dream is a good combination (to me, all other masteries are better combinations for Dream). This is not to say it won't work, just that there are better Dream builds and better mage builds.

I would create a build like this

TitanCalc by stonedonkey - A Titan Quest Calculator - Prophet (http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Prophet&master1=8&master2=9&m1=32-0-10-0-12-0-0-0-12-0-0-8-6-12-0-0-1-0-0-8-0&m2=32-0-12-1-12-8-0-0-16-0-0-0-0-8-0-0-6-12-0-8-0-0)

but take it with a grain of salt, as I said I only experimented with it, not actually played it for long. I actually used the Trance of Convalescence (to regenerate energy faster), so you might want to experiment with that instead of Trance of Empathy (Trance of Wrath has too short a radius to be suitable for a caster imo).

One thing I just noticed is that I did not actually pick Lightning, but that is because I do not use that skill, to me Squall and Thunderball are far preferable to Lightning. If you want to go with Lightning, I guess I would get rid of the Distortion Wave tree and Master Mind.

Imo an Oracle is preferable for boss fights (the Prophet has a somewhat easier time with mobs though, thanks to Distortion Wave (so if you get rid of that in order to get Lightning this no longer actually is true)), the Lich King is a great tank and the Outsider comes in handy as well, so if you want to go the caster route, I'd recommend an Oracle over a Prophet.

Here is what I would focus on as an Oracle :

TitanCalc by stonedonkey - A Titan Quest Calculator - Oracle (http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Oracle&master1=2&master2=8&m1=32-0-0-12-0-0-0-0-0-16-0-6-0-0-12-0-12-0-1-16-0&m2=32-0-10-0-12-8-0-0-12-0-0-8-6-12-0-0-1-0-0-8-0)

and this is what my build actually looks like :

TitanCalc by stonedonkey - A Titan Quest Calculator - Oracle (http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Oracle&master1=2&master2=8&m1=32-5-0-11-7-0-0-0-0-15-0-5-0-0-11-0-11-0-1-15-0-0&m2=32-0-7-0-9-5-0-0-9-0-9-5-3-9-0-0-1-0-9-5-0-0)

the difference is due to the fact that I have some + to all skills / Storm skills, which allow me to not max the skills and still reach the maximum limit (anything which is not at 1 is actually maxed thanks to gear).

hentai
05-05-2007, 02:15 PM
Yes it is true that Prophet is the best character for massed enemies thanks to distortion wave, and Oracle for bosses thanks to lich king and outsider but you forget that Prophet can invest also in spell breaker and spell shock which is very effective boss killer, so the Prophet would definitely be the most powerfull caster, just distortion wave+squall is enough 95% of the time and no other caster character can get even close to that kind of damage and overall effectiveness.
btw you forgot about trance of empathy-extremely effective-large radius+60% of all damage reflected, even without 3-10% attack damage converted to healh it is superb.

hentai
05-05-2007, 03:37 PM
btw does static charge increase lightning damage of the storm wisp?

mamba
05-05-2007, 04:53 PM
Yes it is true that Prophet is the best character for massed enemies thanks to distortion wave, and Oracle for bosses thanks to lich king and outsider but you forget that Prophet can invest also in spell breaker and spell shock which is very effective boss killer, so the Prophet would definitely be the most powerfull caster, just distortion wave+squall is enough 95% of the time and no other caster character can get even close to that kind of damage and overall effectiveness.

Never tried Spell Breaker myself (actually I did once, I did not find it effective at all, I wondered whether I ever hit with it as it showed no effect whatsoever, so I gave up using it), might give it a(nother) try. Of course this is another Storm skill, thereby making the Prophet even less reliant on Dream. At the very least this is nothing a Prophet has that an Oracle could not have either, so it is no advantage of the Prophet.

Storm has nice mass control as well with Squall (takes care of archers and casters and can be kept up constantly) and Thunderball (stuns the rest). I agree that the additional Distortion Wave made my experimental Prophet better at killing / avoiding mobs. If this were an either or situation I would go with Thunderball over Distortion Wave however (why slow something by 50% when you can stun it).


btw you forgot about trance of empathy-extremely effective-large radius+60% of all damage reflected, even without 3-10% attack damage converted to healh it is superb.

I doubt I forgot it, my proposed build even uses it. The problem isn't so much reflecting / dealing the damage, it is avoiding to take it yourself. The damage reflected does not reduce the damage you take (afaik), so if you reflect back 2000 damage (to a boss with 50000 HP, who barely notices it...) it means you have just been killed. Furthermore those 2000 points are no more than one attack of your staff does anyway, so it is not truly that important (unless your method of killing bosses is charging them, getting killed, and reaching them again before they recover the reflected damage ;) )

The Lich King helps you avoiding being hit (by getting the boss to focus on him instead of you and surviving every attack), no Dream skill manages to do this.

If it boils down to having Distortion Wave and Trance of Empathy over Lich King and Outsider (and Ternion and Deatchill Aura), the Oracle wins over the Prophet imo.

mamba
05-05-2007, 04:59 PM
btw does static charge increase lightning damage of the storm wisp?

Who cares, given the laziness of the Wisp all it does is buff your lightning damage even more anyway ;)

On a more serious note, no, it does not (the Storm Nimbus icon does not appear underneath the pet icons, unlike Earth Enchantment), but the Wisp deals too little damage for this to be important anyway. It helps by boosting your damage and sometimes getting the attention of a mob, not by dealing any noteable damage.

hentai
05-05-2007, 05:24 PM
You seem to forget that Thunderball has 10s of recharge time and Distortion Wave has 5s, so even though the Thunderball can't even get close to tremendous damage and versatilty of types of damage that dw has not to mention slow effect, you can double the rate of attack in relation to Thunderball.

And slow effect vs. stun effect that thunderball has is not really relevant because in almost all cases the damage from just one distortion wave blast is enough for instant kill, not to mention the second blast in time of just one thunderball.

On the other hand you have Thunderball that deals 3-5 times less damage than dw does and it's stun time is much shorter than the recharge time.

So it is pretty clear what is better.

btw how often does wisp use its Eye of the Storm ability since it lasts only 30s?

apocalypse80
05-05-2007, 05:49 PM
no other caster character can get even close to that kind of damage and overall effectiveness.

I giggled.
So I guess you've never tried a ternion oracle or conjurer.

Weapons scale far better than spells and ternion is a weapon attack with a huge AoE.
It can also be spammed without any need for -recharge.
And it can carry all kinds of interesting effects if your gear provides them ; slow , stun , disruption , mana burn , resistance debuffs.

Comparable to a spell?
Rrrrrright.

For what it's worth , my conjurer considers the damage of eruption a joke compared to ternion.

hentai
05-05-2007, 05:51 PM
The Lich King helps you avoiding being hit (by getting the boss to focus on him instead of you and surviving every attack), no Dream skill manages to do this.



But doesn't the Wisp do this job even better since it has the inherent chance to avoid 99% of attacks?

ternion attack is pretty crappy since the three projectiles have a very large angle even if you aim at the top of the screen, so in most cases just one projectile hits and often not even one.
Also projectiles can't pass through a variaty of obstacles unlike Distortion Wave.

apocalypse80
05-05-2007, 05:59 PM
You should inform everyone that's ever voted in a "what's the best caster" poll.
I mean just to stop the oracle and conjurer from being the runaway #1 and #2 every time.

Plus I somehow get the notion that you have no idea of how to use ternion.

Giest118
05-05-2007, 06:28 PM
Of course he knows how to use Ternion.
Use an obsolete version of Titan Quest. Duh.

mamba
05-05-2007, 06:53 PM
You seem to forget that Thunderball has 10s of recharge time and Distortion Wave has 5s, so even though the Thunderball can't even get close to tremendous damage and versatilty of types of damage that dw has not to mention slow effect, you can double the rate of attack in relation to Thunderball.

True, you can cast DW faster and it deals more damage, but slowed mobs still can reach you and hit you, stunned mobs cannot. While the mobs are stunned I can finish them with my staff, so the little damage dealt by Thunderball is not a problem.

If I had to choose between the two I would still pick Thunderball, as a Prophet you do not have to choose tho, which is why using both gives you better crowd control than an Oracle.


On the other hand you have Thunderball that deals 3-5 times less damage than dw does and it's stun time is much shorter than the recharge time.

So it is pretty clear what is better.

I do not care for the damage dealt by Thunderball at all, I finish the mobs off while they are stunned with my staff. Only if there are too many mobs does recharge come into play. I agree that the Oracle will be rushed more frequently in the end game than a Prophet as the Prophet has DW in addition to what the Oracle has for crowd control, never debated that, but I would not trade Thunderball for DW anyway. DW is a nice addition tho.


btw how often does wisp use its Eye of the Storm ability since it lasts only 30s?

not sure, it seems to be triggered almost every fight at least.

mamba
05-05-2007, 07:00 PM
But doesn't the Wisp do this job even better since it has the inherent chance to avoid 99% of attacks?

The Wisp doesn't appear to keep the boss focused, apart from that it goes down more frequently than the Lich King, even tho it has a 99% chance to not get hit. As I said before, nothing kills the Lich King, except for Typhon (since 1.20, even he was unable to before).


ternion attack is pretty crappy since the three projectiles have a very large angle even if you aim at the top of the screen, so in most cases just one projectile hits and often not even one.
Also projectiles can't pass through a variaty of obstacles unlike Distortion Wave.

True, the Ternion nerf in 1.20 cost it a lot of power, I only use it once mobs are close (no point in using it for bosses), in that case all 3 rays hit and finish what managed to get close (that at that time they also are in the Deathchill Aura helps further).

Don't get me wrong, Distortion Wave is a good skill, but that skill along with the others Dream has to offer are still inferior to what Spirit has to offer a mage imo.

Maybe we should meet in game with our respective Oracle and Prophet builds (assuming you have one) and see how they both fare :)

apocalypse80
05-05-2007, 07:03 PM
The wisp has a chance to dodge projectiles and melee attacks.

Unfortunately for it , AoE attacks are not considered projectiles nor melee attacks.
So it gets hit and dies.

Just to clarify , let me give an example ;
Eruption and squall are considered projectiles , they cover an area but each target is hit by projectiles , so they can be dodged.
The wave attack of dactyls on the other hand is not a projectile.

mamba
05-05-2007, 07:05 PM
You should inform everyone that's ever voted in a "what's the best caster" poll.
I mean just to stop the oracle and conjurer from being the runaway #1 and #2 every time.

Plus I somehow get the notion that you have no idea of how to use ternion.

I guess that poll was before the expansion was released (I haven't seen a poll since), so any Dream build cannot possibly be in it. Due to this, the fact that Oracle always came in first is no proof.

Apart from that, Ternion is a pretty weak skill these days, it ruled pre 1.20, but got nerfed in 1.20, so much so that I stopped using it and searched for a replacement skill (but not actually finding one in either Lightning or Ice Shards). I did not use it at all for a while and now use it once mobs have rushed me, but a lot less than before.

apocalypse80
05-05-2007, 07:08 PM
Try using it with some %dmg converted to health.
That was the turning point for me after the nerf.
And I also use an arctic ring (slow total speed).

Now I can even use it point-blank , though I can't survive being surrounded.

hentai
05-05-2007, 07:09 PM
You haven't answered my complaint about ternion attack-the three projectiles have very large angle even when you aim at the top of the screen, they can't pass through obstacles like tent fences, trees, rocks.
Distortion Wave negates all of that.

Deathchill aura has very short radius making it unusable, even trance of wrath has larger radius.

Also you haven't answered on your main point of taking Spirit mastery-Lich King-as a bate for boss to focus on, but that same function can perform Wisp even better because he has a 99% chance to avoid all attacks.

So, to conclude:
-nothing uniquely, indispensively usefull in spirit mastery
-almost everything best in dream mastery, we haven't even mentioned HUGE damage from distort reality that petrifies for much longer than any stun time anywhere
-storm mastery-->squall, wisp as bate, perhaps lightning

So it is obvious that Prophet is the best caster character, NOT Oracle.

edit:we posted at the same time so you answered to some of this, even if you have no bate at all this issue can be simply resolved by increasing your movement speed through items or dream skill.

Giest118
05-05-2007, 07:18 PM
Nothing ever attacks the wisp reliably, and even if they did, that 99% dodge only applies to melee and projectile attacks, something which not all attacks fall under.

The Liche does lots of damage.

Care to comment?

hentai
05-05-2007, 07:23 PM
Now I can even use it point-blank , though I can't survive being surrounded.

You see, that's why dream mastery with distort reality is better, it has an answer to every situation. And that's why Prophet is numero uno.;)

hentai
05-05-2007, 07:26 PM
The Liche does lots of damage.

Care to comment?

It all comes down to allocation, the number of points needed to make a formidable Liche surpasses the number of points in other equally effective skills damage wise. So in the end choosing spirit mastery just because of Liche is not worthwhile.

apocalypse80
05-05-2007, 07:32 PM
You see, that's why dream mastery with distort reality is better, it has an answer to every situation. And that's why Prophet is numero uno.;)

I meant I can't *tank* surrounded.
But I can stone-form and allow the lich to kill everything.
He's ridiculously good at killing things under the effects of necrosis.

And the prophet can't be number 1.
Even if dream was the best casting mastery , I can still name stronger dream casters.

For one thing there's barely any synergy between the 2 masteries.
+%lightning damage doesn't increase electric burn (look it up if you need to).
Which in turn means I'll take those "HUGE damage" comments with a grain of salt.

EDIT ; I'm getting the feeling we kinda destroyed this thread.......

hentai
05-05-2007, 07:47 PM
Yes, I was thinking about that synergy, the fact is the other masteries are practically the same in this regard, only universal synergy would be damage from lucid dream or vitality damage but they are both negligible. Are you saying that even Diviner would be better than Prophet?

and yes, Distort Reality is spell that deals the most damage, this is very easy to verify.

apocalypse80
05-05-2007, 07:53 PM
The diviner gets to combine the strongest pets in the game (lich and outsider) with mastermind.
Going by straight pet-strength he gets the best pet collection.
Though he misses the support skills of nature.

Is it better than the prophet? I don't know.

Oh , something I think you might find interesting ; the nightmare is probably THE best pet when it comes to tanking.
Only the lich compares.

The reason?
The little bugger has unbelievable resistances against almost everything.
Not too bad at holding aggro either.

Edit ; Oh I wasn't doubting that DR can do damage , I'm doubting that it can do "HUGE" damage.
But maybe I'm using a broken scale here , I'm kinda used to chars with 5-digit dps numbers.....

mamba
05-05-2007, 08:20 PM
Deathchill aura has very short radius making it unusable, even trance of wrath has larger radius.

True, mobs that can hit me are within its range however, all archers and casters are disabled by Squall already.


So, to conclude:
-nothing uniquely, indispensively usefull in spirit mastery

the same can be said about any other mastery, I am not arguing that there is a skill you cannot do without, I am saying that the skills you gain from Spirit are better than the ones from Dream, at least for a caster.


-almost everything best in dream mastery, we haven't even mentioned HUGE damage from distort reality that petrifies for much longer than any stun time anywhere

This is not true in the least, Dream has nothing 'best' (apart from Phantom Strike, a melee skill), it has a lot of 'good' tho.

Forget about your LAME Distort Reality damage or your petrify, when I experimented with the Prophet I specced out of it again because it was so useless. I don't think I ever managed to petrify anything, let alone for a noticeable amount of time. Each and every Thunderball of mine managed to immobilize mobs longer, somehow it manages to look good on paper but screws up completely in game.


-storm mastery-->squall, wisp as bate, perhaps lightning

Lightning is lame imo, I have it but do not use it (except for Toxeus in his cage in the passage), Wisp doesn't work as bait, unlike the Lich King.


So it is obvious that Prophet is the best caster character, NOT Oracle.

This is not even close to obvious (and I am not the only one disagreeing). Prophet doesn't even come in second imo (that would be Conjurer), we can argue about it being 3rd to 6th (somewhere between Summoner, Elementalist and Druid), I am not even sure it actually is better than any of these tho (but then I haven't played those builds).


edit:we posted at the same time so you answered to some of this, even if you have no bate at all this issue can be simply resolved by increasing your movement speed through items or dream skill.

No, this does not resolve it in the least, it helps, but it is not even close to being as good as having a tank.

How far along is your Prophet ? how far along your Oracle ?

My Oracle is level 67, my experimental Prophet was level 60, when I run them thru Hades palace for testing purposes the Prophet is better at mobs (as I said) but sucks at Hades, my Oracle hardly notices him (he usually goes down before my Outsider vanishes again). And before you argue this being unfair as my Oracle is a higher level, I ran out of useful skills in my 50s.

If you only are halfway thru epic, do not even bother to make assumptions about which of the two is better, both run rings around anything they can encounter up to that point.

mamba
05-05-2007, 08:22 PM
You see, that's why dream mastery with distort reality is better, it has an answer to every situation. And that's why Prophet is numero uno.;)

Things that get so close to an Oracle won't be stopped by a measly Distort Reality. Heck, nothing is stopped by a DR from my experience.

hentai
05-05-2007, 08:22 PM
I hate it when there are so many combinations and you always miss something critical, I would like to use squall, distortion wave, lightning and liche in one character. To bad they didn't make some kind of masterymorph character that can be totally custumizable.

btw where is that ranking list of casters that you are constantly talking about and is it made from version 1.3?

mamba
05-05-2007, 08:25 PM
It all comes down to allocation, the number of points needed to make a formidable Liche surpasses the number of points in other equally effective skills damage wise. So in the end choosing spirit mastery just because of Liche is not worthwhile.

The problem is that you get more skill points than useful skills, so there is nothing wrong with building up the Lich King, apart from that I do not even believe that there is a caster skill in Dream which is as useful as the Lich King, skill point for skill point.

You do not even have to max him, if you invest as many points as a maxed Nightmare needs he already is pretty close to invincible.

hentai
05-05-2007, 08:35 PM
So in your opinion which is better, Oracle or Diviner?
I have to mention that I don't like characters that have trouble with mobs, in every RPG I like my character to be able to kill almost instantly a large number of enemies.
So I can't decide what combination from three masteries-dream, spirit, storm to choose?

btw, I haven't gone past normal difficulty or the 3. act. I'm waiting to buy a new computer with 24" LCD with native resolution 1950*1200.

apocalypse80
05-05-2007, 08:37 PM
You do not even have to max him, if you invest as many points as a maxed Nightmare needs he already is pretty close to invincible.

Actually (and you might find this strange) the nightmare is close to invincible with only 1 point in the base skill.

I'm not kidding either , just look at it's resistances ; http://www.titanquest.net/forums/dream/14601-why-my-nightmare-invincible-2.html#post137376

It gets the same resistances even at lvl1.
And they make it the ultimate tank.

Of course it will never do damage like the lich.
Nor will it ever kill bosses solo like the lich (I've had mine kill the legendary manticore solo).

mamba
05-05-2007, 08:38 PM
I hate it when there are so many combinations and you always miss something critical, I would like to use squall, distortion wave, lightning and liche in one character. To bad they didn't make some kind of masterymorph character that can be totally custumizable.

Add the Nightmare to that list, but that would just be too powerful, according to you your Prophet already rules anyway ;)


btw where is that ranking list of casters that you are constantly talking about and is it made from version 1.3?

The only poll I am aware of is old, pre 1.20 and thus pre-expansion as well.

Titan Quest News, Trailers, Screenshots, Previews, Reviews, Guides -- Titan Quest: Immortal Throne Vault (http://titanquestvault.ign.com/?dir=sympoll&dispid=18)

I already said that it does not matter with regard to how good Dream builds are.

apocalypse80
05-05-2007, 08:53 PM
btw, I haven't gone past normal difficulty or the 3. act.

That kinda discredits your opinion , simply because everything works in normal.

Epic and mostly legendary is where the really great skills and builds get separated from the rest.

Just to give you an idea ; Remember where I said that I consider the damage of eruption a joke compared to ternion?
Well , in normal difficulty eruption was my primary boss-killer.
In legendary it's just ok-ish at killing trash mobs.

hentai
05-05-2007, 08:57 PM
Actually the Prophet does rule most of the time killing everything almost instantly but not so much when Bosses are involved, I died pretty often but I haven't used the spellbreaker yet and nobody can really confirm does it really work or is it just like you said only effective on paper?

mamba
05-05-2007, 09:35 PM
Actually (and you might find this strange) the nightmare is close to invincible with only 1 point in the base skill.

I'm not kidding either , just look at it's resistances ; http://www.titanquest.net/forums/dream/14601-why-my-nightmare-invincible-2.html#post137376

It gets the same resistances even at lvl1.
And they make it the ultimate tank.

Of course it will never do damage like the lich.
Nor will it ever kill bosses solo like the lich (I've had mine kill the legendary manticore solo).

Strange, from my experience with my Evoker it does get killed every once in a while, even on normal difficulty (but then I certainly am far from having its synergies maxed, if this even matters resistance wise).

BTW are the resistances mentioned there taken straight from the database, or do they already consider the -resistance reduction from legendary mode ?

If this turns out to be a great tank, this does make a Prophet more viable than I thought he would be. I still do not think he will be better than an Oracle tho. Dream just doesn't offer enough for mages imo (apart from the pet and Distortion Wave) and constantly using Squall, Thunderball and Distortion Wave sucks your energy dry pretty fast (so maybe I should go with Trance of Convalescence instead of Empathy, like I did with my prior exeriments).

mamba
05-05-2007, 09:43 PM
Actually the Prophet does rule most of the time killing everything almost instantly but not so much when Bosses are involved, I died pretty often but I haven't used the spellbreaker yet and nobody can really confirm does it really work or is it just like you said only effective on paper?

Didn't you just say you only have experience with normal ? Well, my Oracle did not die even once in normal. Ruling mobs in normal is the rule, not the exception, any build can do it.

Finish legendary with your Prophet and let me know how he fares, I changed my experimental Prophet somewhat to see whether what was said here works, the Nightmare is an ok tank (for mobs at least, haven't tried bosses yet, died too often from rushing and finally encountering a Dactyl), Distort Reality sucks, its petrification is shorter than my stun from Thunderball (but at least I actually noted it this time around - or maybe I just noted the stun as it was prolonged due to my artifact, a different one than I used last time, come to think of it, I guess it is the latter).

mamba
05-05-2007, 10:21 PM
So in your opinion which is better, Oracle or Diviner?

If I were to play a Diviner, it would be a melee build, the only caster build I would create with Dream is the Prophet (mostly because Storm sucks at being a melee mastery imo).


I have to mention that I don't like characters that have trouble with mobs, in every RPG I like my character to be able to kill almost instantly a large number of enemies.

There are way better builds for doing that than a Prophet or an Oracle, ever since 1.20 meleers rule the world. As I said, any build can do this in normal, the real test is legendary.

Infares
05-05-2007, 11:13 PM
I'm just gonna jump in and comment on the issue hentai had with Ternion not hitting: Max Arcane Lore first, then Ternion, followed by whatever secondary elemental boosting active buff your second mastery provides (in this case, Earth Enchantment or either Static Charge, or Heart of Frost) then come back and tell us how weak it is. Oh, you'll need a decent staff too since it scales with the weapon, you can start to see what we're talking about with a ~90 base average damage staff and pouring all your attribute points into Int and having gear supporting that damage type. Even with a Normal Staff of the Magi I had 400 DPS by level 25 when I twinked with a 96 base fire damage staff brought over from Epic China.

And that basically put me on cruise control from Act II normal through Act I Epic when I was able to use my Heka.

hentai
05-05-2007, 11:18 PM
please will someone finally max out spell breaker/spell shock and use it on a couple of tough bosses. that's all I want to know.

Giest118
05-06-2007, 12:11 AM
I'm just gonna jump in and comment on the issue hentai had with Ternion not hitting: Max Arcane Lore first, then Ternion, followed by whatever secondary elemental boosting active buff your second mastery provides (in this case, Earth Enchantment or either Static Charge, or Heart of Frost) then come back and tell us how weak it is.

With Ternion maxed, each projectile does 25% less damage than a regular staff attack, meaning that you spend energy on an attack less powerful than your regular attack, unless you go right up to an enemy (not recommended as a caster) and cast it so all three projectiles hit.

What am I not taking into account here?

mamba
05-06-2007, 05:24 AM
With Ternion maxed, each projectile does 25% less damage than a regular staff attack, meaning that you spend energy on an attack less powerful than your regular attack, unless you go right up to an enemy (not recommended as a caster) and cast it so all three projectiles hit.

What am I not taking into account here?

Two things I guess, maxed is at +4 over what you can get via skill points, at that point in time it has no deduction anymore, that and the fact that 0,75 * 3 is still greater than 1, i.e. it still does more damage, just spread to different mobs.

That being said, I think they nerfed it too much in 1.20 and I only use it in close range myself.

apocalypse80
05-06-2007, 07:35 AM
Strange, from my experience with my Evoker it does get killed every once in a while, even on normal difficulty (but then I certainly am far from having its synergies maxed, if this even matters resistance wise).

BTW are the resistances mentioned there taken straight from the database, or do they already consider the -resistance reduction from legendary mode ?

The lower set of resistances are considering the resistance *bonus* all pets get in legendary.
Everything apart from the player character :cry: gets a bonus instead of an reduction.

Increasing skills doesn't increase it's resistances , but it increases the life it leeches (or regenerates from mastermind).
So yes , they make a difference.

Of course by depending on resistances (instead of dmg absorbtion) the nightmare has weak points.
He isn't all that sturdy against vitality , which is very often used by bosses.
But he does have 100% resistances to just about every disabling effect , which the lich doesn't.

That doesn't mean I'd prefer it over the lich.
The lich is a 1-man army , it does everything.

hentai
05-06-2007, 10:56 AM
And what about spell breaker/spell shock as a boss killer?

apocalypse80
05-06-2007, 11:15 AM
The effect on spellbreaker is mana burn.
Spell shock adds a convertion ratio to dmg (you do dmg equal to some percentage of the mana you burn) and skill disruption.

Bosses get a global 100% resistance to skill disruption.
And a 20%/40%/70% resistance to mana burn in normal/epic/legendary.
Plus , I don't know if there's a separate resistance for the damage.

It will work , but you'll have to nuke the bosses resistances first.

For it to kill bosses you'll need to not only destroy their resistances , but also you'll need the boss to have a lot of energy to begin with.
If their energy is 1/50th of their life then they really won't be taking much damage.

Still , fighting a boss that can't use skills (because of no energy) is going to help a lot.

Mazzox
05-06-2007, 11:15 AM
Hay guys.. Very interesting discussion but how about addressing the actual topic a bit also.. =/

hentai
05-06-2007, 12:17 PM
Hay guys.. Very interesting discussion but how about addressing the actual topic a bit also.. =/

What do you mean, it is clear from the beginning of the discussion that hardly anyone uses lightning because of its low damage and lenghty recharge time.

To other topic, so squall is used for reducing resistances which is very easy because of its large radius and short recharge time, and then you use spell breaker. And even if you don't kill the boss with just spell breaker it loses so much mana that effectively you castrate him.

So I was then right when I said that Prophet is better/best build because it is better equipped to deal with mobs and choosing Spirit mastery for just Liche to deal with bosses is not so important when you have a squall/spell breaker combo, and added bonus is that squall is also important in every other instance. Also you mentioned that Nightmare is also a good tank that can replace Liche with squall/spell breaker combo.
So are you still saying that Oracle or Diviner are better than Prophet?

apocalypse80
05-06-2007, 12:25 PM
So are you still saying that Oracle or Diviner are better than Prophet?

Yes , at least for the oracle.

And for the love of god , wait until you've seen some of your wonder skills work in legendary before making ridiculous claims about the strongest caster.

You are taking their performance in normal as an indication of how they work later.
And it doesn't work that way.

Study prey ; ok in normal , GODLY in legendary.
Volcanic orb ; amazing in normal , horse-poo in legendary.

Get the picture yet?

I'm through with destroying this thread.

mamba
05-06-2007, 02:26 PM
To other topic, so squall is used for reducing resistances which is very easy because of its large radius and short recharge time, and then you use spell breaker. And even if you don't kill the boss with just spell breaker it loses so much mana that effectively you castrate him.

So I was then right when I said that Prophet is better/best build because it is better equipped to deal with mobs and choosing Spirit mastery for just Liche to deal with bosses is not so important when you have a squall/spell breaker combo, and added bonus is that squall is also important in every other instance. Also you mentioned that Nightmare is also a good tank that can replace Liche with squall/spell breaker combo.
So are you still saying that Oracle or Diviner are better than Prophet?

Give it a try (you can always spec out of it again), for me Spell Breaker showed no noteable effect when casting it on a boss, I wondered whether I actually hit with it because there was no reaction whatsoever. But I said so a while ago already.

Yes, I still say Oracle is better, and you should stop insisting Prophet is until you actually have some experience with it (that is finished legendary and farmed legendary Typhon and Hades at least 20 times each). Actually you should have that experiene with both before making such claims.

That you 'rule' normal means nothing, everyone does (heck, you do not even rule it, you said you already died a few times, most of my builds die at most once or twice in it, my Oracle never did).

Quite frankly, you have no clue of the late game, and that is where builds shine or break, so stop making wild guesses and stating them as fact, back them up first. I agree with apocalypse80, we have gotten this too far off topic and I guess everyone has made their points by now (ours founded in fact / experience, yours in fiction, as you have no experience yet), time to let this rest.

Let us know how you fared farming legendary Typhon and Hades with your Prophet, there is no point in continuing this before that. Heck, then we can even join the same game and settle this once and for all :)

mamba
05-06-2007, 02:53 PM
Hay guys.. Very interesting discussion but how about addressing the actual topic a bit also.. =/

Ok, in an attempt to bring this back on topic, after helping it being derailed.

Imo the strength of the Storm tree lies in the lightning, not the cold side. Squall, Thunderball and of course Lightning all deal lightning damage. Only Ice Shards deal cold damage. Storm Nimbus also boosts lightning more than it does cold (I max the entire tree as I frequently use cold staffs).

While some swear by Ice Shards, I never found them useful. Maybe it is another of those 'great in normal, sucks in legendary' skills, but by the time I actually tried them they were useless to me, my staff dealt as much damage as fast (actually slightly faster imo) and the energy burn rate of Ice Shards is insane.

That being said, I would not use Lightning as my primary damage source either. Lightning was another skill I got rather late and by then it too didn't appear overly useful. I prefer Squall and Thunderball even tho they deal less damage as they have other useful effects. Squall reduces resistances and causes casters and archers to miss, something you will come to appreciate in epic and legendary. Thunderball stuns a lot longer than Lightning does (7.9 vs 1.5 seconds), something you will come to appreciate too (esp. since resistances will shorten that, eventually the stun of Lightning is barely noticeable).

The only advantage Lightning has is that you can hit someone you cannot hit with your staff or Ice Shards (as there is a wall in between for example), but that is very rare. I have Lightnig available (thanks to having more skill points than useful skills) and that is the only time I actually use it.

Galser
05-06-2007, 03:16 PM
Hiya all =)
Im semi new to TQ:IT And i'd like to make a new Elementalist character who uses Lightning attacks as his/her main source of damage in the Storm tree.
Is this a viable option ? Or is all the power in the ice tree ? I would aprreciate a link or example build for a viable lightning using elementalist.

My current plan is this:TitanCalc by stonedonkey - A Titan Quest Calculator - Elementalist (http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Elementalist&master1=8&master2=1&m1=32-0-10-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-12-8-0-12-0-0-1-1-12-8-0&m2=32-12-0-1-0-0-12-1-16-0-1-1-0-1-0-1-0-12-0-8-12-0)

Also, does static charge also improve lighning damage or just the damage of storm nimbus ? (Storm nimbus also effects staff attacks.. right ?)

I imagine these questions have been answered elsewehere but I'm having trouble finding them.. =S

Being quite a noob i'd also appreciate some suggestions on how many points to put into attributes and what skills to pump first ect.

I currently have a Elementalist in Act 2 Epic in a 3 player game so my actual Elementalist experience is still limited. I've also concentrated so far more in Earth than Storm.

On your build I would say:

1) Max Squall/Obscured Visibility - One of the greatest skills in the game. If you intend to survive any group of archers later you'll need it.

2) Leave Storm Nimbus at 1 point - There simply aren't enough skill points for everything and I'd rather spend those 9 points elsewhere. Also keep in mind that odds favor the cold damage triggering on Storm Nimbus.

Here's my planned build - TitanCalc by stonedonkey - A Titan Quest Calculator - Elementalist (http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Elementalist&master1=8&master2=1&m1=32-0-1-0-12-0-0-0-12-0-12-8-6-12-0-0-1-0-12-8-0&m2=32-12-0-1-1-0-0-1-6-0-1-1-0-0-1-1-0-0-1-2-12-0)

I used Volanic Orb through most of normal but I've reassigned those points now. It simply missed too frequently - partly due to others in the game triggering monsters prior to the orb hitting.

hentai
05-06-2007, 03:19 PM
Although if you max out Eye of the Storm and Static Charge along with staff and some items you can at least triple the damage of all your lightning based attacks.
If you have Oracle there is always a problem of not having great short recharge time primary attack that you put as a left click(like distortion wave), ternion attack will miss almost all the time, so only Prophet can save you.:razz:

Thunderball has negligible damage and stun is just 5s(further reduced by resistances) but recharge time is 10s, so maybe if you base everything on Liche King and his arcane blast you will not get swamped by numerous enemies and Orcle would then seem like a right mastery. I don't know, you will have to try it for yourself. I get confused by different numbers on the forum and different numbers in TITAN CALC 0.60.

In any case lightning has 12s of recharge time and that is very bad.

mamba
05-06-2007, 03:41 PM
Although if you max out Eye of the Storm and Static Charge along with staff and some items you can at least triple the damage of all your lightning based attacks.
If you have Oracle there is always a problem of not having great short recharge time primary attack that you put as a left click(like distortion wave), ternion attack will miss almost all the time, so only Prophet can save you.:razz:

Sigh, you don't give up easily, as has been said before, stop considering your experience from normal something which is also true for legendary.

Actually my short recharge time primary attack is my staff, with (rmb) or without (lmb) Ternion, depending on circumstances.

Staffs deal a heck of a lot more damage than DW, even without Ternion. I doubt DW will be your primary attack past epic, if even that long.


Thunderball has negligible damage and stun is just 5s(further reduced by resistances) but recharge time is 10s, so maybe if you base everything on Liche King and his arcane blast you will not get swamped by numerous enemies and Orcle would then seem like a right mastery. I don't know, you will have to try it for yourself. I get confused by different numbers on the forum and different numbers in TITAN CALC 0.60.

True, you cannot stun all mobs all of the time (that would be just too easy), you can squall all casters / archers all of the time and kill many mobs while being stunned, but some will reach you unless you retreat. Those then are dealt with via Ternion and Deathchill (definitely more of the former and very little of the latter).

As for the recharge time, mine is reduced by 60% (thru gear) whereas my stun time is increased by 40% (thanks to my artifact), so maybe I might be very close to actually being able to stun everything all of the time (I definitely can do it in normal, just tried it at Olympus, most mobs in normal already die from the first Thunderball tho - by now).

I usually do not try tho, I stun them initially and then do not bother to do so again, what is left when they awake is too little to bother stunning again, if they reach me I kill them with Ternion. I only deviate from this and stun again if there is a truly large group of mobs or very fast / dangerous mobs (but even then I frequently do not stun again, even tho I could).

Galser
05-06-2007, 03:53 PM
If you have Oracle there is always a problem of not having great short recharge time primary attack that you put as a left click(like distortion wave), ternion attack will miss almost all the time, so only Prophet can save you.:razz:



I have to say that I haven't used distortion wave personally. I played a melee diviner (finished legendary) so I used DR/TR but I played with someone who used DW. And it is not a left button primary kill skill long term. They ended up reassigning those points as the damage simply didn't hold up (although in multiplayer it did a lovely job of focusing aggro on the caster). But it did do a really good job killing in normal (as did DR/TR).

Are you planning on trying to make a character that uses Electrical Burn damage as their primary damage? That would be interesting. If you do you should make a thread and let people keep track of your progress.

mamba
05-06-2007, 05:22 PM
Are you planning on trying to make a character that uses Electrical Burn damage as their primary damage? That would be interesting. If you do you should make a thread and let people keep track of your progress.

I doubt this works out, electrical burn is damage over time, thus even when boosted by all the gear in the world, it won't hold up to a staff.

Nothing wrong with trying tho, you can always spec out again.

Galser
05-06-2007, 06:34 PM
I doubt this works out, electrical burn is damage over time, thus even when boosted by all the gear in the world, it won't hold up to a staff.

Nothing wrong with trying tho, you can always spec out again.

I agree.

hentai
05-06-2007, 07:55 PM
Can you answer me this- if I have 400INT how much percentage do I get on elemental damage(all spells that deal elemental damage)? Is there some calculator on this subject?

mamba
05-06-2007, 08:04 PM
As per the knowledge thread, 65 points of int raise the elemental damage by 10% and by 1.625 flat elemental damage, so you would get slightly more than a 60% boost.

(elementalDamageDV * ((intelligenceDV / 650) + 1)) + (intelligenceDV*0.025)

Oh, and one more thing, DoT damage gets a bigger boost, there it is 50 int for a 10% increase, spread evenly over the time, so it is an 80% boost to DoT damage.

hentai
05-06-2007, 08:55 PM
I see, so electrical burn damage from dream mastery would get a higher bonus. And what about vitality damage, by which attribute is it governed?
btw has anyone tried melee prophet?

Galser
05-07-2007, 12:02 AM
Vitality damage isn't increased by any attributes.

mamba
05-07-2007, 02:32 AM
I see, so electrical burn damage from dream mastery would get a higher bonus.

It does, but then its damage remains constant as you cannot progress the skill any further, you will find better staffs dealing elemental damage however, so the staff will progress faster anyway.


And what about vitality damage, by which attribute is it governed?

no attrib boosts vitality damage


btw has anyone tried melee prophet?

someone did and was quite happy with it, on this forum I believe. But then he wasn't very high level yet, so that might still change. Just goes to show that Dream is a strong melee mastery with Phantom Strike (as that was basically all he did use as far as active skills are concerned), I still would not recommend a melee Prophet, any other Dream build will be a better meleer, Storm has nothing to offer to a meleer imo (I know, every Thane and Paladin will disagree with this, but imo they are bad melee builds too).

hentai
05-07-2007, 06:07 AM
What do you think would be the best synergy for Phantom Strike since it deals huge percentage of total damage?
actually I'm not at all sure to what(I know what total damage is) does that damage aply to..

The Rock-man
05-07-2007, 09:39 AM
Total Damage Means all damage sadly it mle weapons only.
BTW for all Skills Forget about boosting any NON-elemental parts with Str or Dex though +% on Items etc still work.

mamba
05-07-2007, 11:57 AM
What do you think would be the best synergy for Phantom Strike since it deals huge percentage of total damage?
actually I'm not at all sure to what(I know what total damage is) does that damage aply to..

Total damage means all damage types, it applies to your melee weapon attack (i.e. no staffs or bows).

Phantom Strike doesn't need a synergy, the amount of damage dealt all by itself is sufficient. Apart from that, anything which boosts damage further will of course be a good synergy, which skills that are depends on the type of damage you deal.

Lucid Dream (Dream), Earth Enchantment and Brimstone (Earth), Storm Nimbus, Heart of Frost and Static Charge (Storm), Art of the Hunt (Hunting), Blade Honing (Rogue), Unearthly Power (Spirit) all would be good additions to it, depending on the type(s) of damage you deal.

Good synergies would also be skills which lower the resistances of the enemy as the enemy then has less protection against the damage you deal.

apocalypse80
05-07-2007, 12:08 PM
Phantom strike does have a particularly shining application.
Using it with a spear.

The +% total damage is the same thing as having +%physical and +%piercing (plus every other dmg type).
+% physical increases the physical and piercing damage of the spear.
+% piercing dmg increases the piercing damage again.

It's the same principal that allows piercing damage builds to get ridiculous dps numbers.
And it means that a PS with a spear will be quite extreme.

Flying Fox
05-10-2007, 03:16 PM
You know guys, from the moment this hentai individual noted that Prophet is a superior build compared to Oracle using the justification that Distortion Wave is a better crowd controller and killer skill compared to lightning skills, I knew he never grasped an inch of what this game is about. Then again I was amused how this thread went on for 7 straight pages discussing with a novice who doesn't know jack but still wanted to continue to argue how good a Prophet that neglects the storm mastery is.

Distortion wave = good damage and Ternion always miss all the time? LOL apparently you don't know what you're talking about lest about the game itself. Let me spell it out for you, EVEN IF YOU BUILD YOUR CHAR AROUND DISTORTION WAVE IT WILL GET NOWHERE NEAR MID-EPIC. Heck, even a life-drain vita damage caster diviner will whip your Prophet anytime past normal.

I have -100% recharge and no mobs can even come close to me even when chain lightning only does 1 sec stun due to massive spamming. My only problems now is mana cost but thats mainly because my character is still young (level 41). That problem can also be countered using permanent dark covenant and with unearthly power just makes my lightning more potent. Face it, Prophet is not as good as Oracle and Conjurer or Diviner because they don't synergise that well.

adamegeddon
05-20-2007, 01:34 AM
Maybe, he may be a novice, but im not, and let me assure all of u that electrical burn damage is more than viable in legendary. Yes is it damage over time but it stacks with all the other electrical burn damages from the other skills in dream. I have a lvl 68 oracle (ternion spammer with liche king the standard one) and a lvl 70 diviner that utilises electrical burn damage and i must admit, my diviner is more survivable and kils mobs faster than my oracle.

I have the best gears for both character classes so comparison is very easy.

Advantage of oracle: It kills bosses faster due to (fingerbone staff +liche king+squall)

Disadvantage of oracle: very very frail, i challenge anyone who has played as an oracle and not been hit in legendary (it happens occationally ur spells wont give u ultimate protection as u will be running for ur life alot of the time even with the liche tanking)

Advantage of Diviner: omg how this guy can kill mass crowds and not worry about being frail as he can tank. Give him a 'shadowformed band' and with TOW at max with maximum +% eletrical burn u WILL kill mobs faster than an oracle- believe me i have compared the two very thoroughly, and u wont be fearing for ur life every second of the game where even those crabs can kil u in one or two pinches. The 'shadowformed band' along with the other +80% life leech means that u will never need pots for health.

Disadvantage: Boss killing takes longer than the oracle but not substantially longer and the fact that certain skills such as DR's petrify do not work on most bosses is a downer.

I have to disagree with u mamba as for me DR's petrify has worked on all mobs i have encountered in the game (legendary). It only doesnt work on the major bosses and some of the tougher mini bosses, u probably need to acquire the TOW to reduce resistance then try and see if it still works in legendary :)

On the other hand, the nerf to the ternion has severely weakened ternion usage, despite the fact that i use the ultimate ternion staff (fingerbone) and maxed the stormnimbus line as well as have all the best items for an oracle in the game, it still fails to kill as fast as my diviner for mobs anyway and the added repetition of constantly casting squall as a pre debuff on basically eveything explains why many people are kinda tired of the oracle build.

If u guys dont believe that electrical burn damage will still work wonders in legendary, i challenge u to try my diviner build and see for urself. I was an avid oracle fanatic but some experimenting and long hours of trading and testing has yielded me to write a lengthy guild to my diviner. I posted this build on the dream section of the forum under "adams diviner caster build"

Hope this link will work:

http://www.titanquest.net/forums/dream/16388-adams-diviner-caster-build.html

Again, tried and tested at legendary, works wonders. Only thing i dislike about it is the item limitations as u need very specific items to make this build viable.

mamba
05-20-2007, 02:55 AM
Um, we were talking about a Oracle vs. Prophet initially, not a Diviner.

Your Diviner is a caster type ? I probably would create a meleer given those two masteries. Isn't the radius of ToW too small for a caster, it doesn't even reach far enough to help reduce resistances for all mobs within range of DR. Same with the Deatchill Aura.

Seems you have to go in the midst of battle for those to be effective.

adamegeddon
05-20-2007, 06:33 AM
True it may have started in that way but if u look at post 51 he asked about the comparison with oracle and diviner and by the way things are headed in this discussion it is clear the real argument is mainly about the dream spell skills and since +%lightning does not increase electric burn damage i will consider the argument for the prophet with the oracle to be related as if it were an argument with the comparison with oracle and diviner.

What i think u failed to read in the build and one of the highlights of the build that i mentioned is that it can tank so yes although those skills require close contact, the mere fact that i need to go up close doesnt mean instant death like an oracle. In fact, with the use of a "shadowformed ring" i will gurantee u that i will not have to use any health pots and this build has ripped through legendary.

Although hentai hasnt played through legendary yet, I have and i will assure u that electric burn damage is increadible powerful at legendary witht the right gears.

To the question of what is the best caster, as originally raised, this question may pose many issues such as what is considered best. If best means a caster build's ability to finish legendary than i say all castr builds are best.

Howver, if best means the fastest killing speed and survivability caster than without a doubt i would say diviner beats oracle.

Dont get me wrong i love oracles, i have a lvl 68 oracle. However, in honest truth i have played with both my oracle and other casters (i.e. elementalists, prohphet, conjurer) and my now lvl 70 diviner all through legendary and i must say, of all the casters he kills the fastest, and gets through legendary the easiest. If i really wanted to make him into a killer wrecking ball of destruction i would have respecced outta the summon outsider and sleep and pour points to max my liche king for the soul blight ability.

I do not speak with a bias view cause i have played all caster builds and yes through legendary as well. My favourite used to be the oracle but that was pre IT. Now the diviner imo is not only my favourite caster (in terms of 'fun factor' to play) but hes also the most powerful and is not so frail as the oracle to die in 1 or 2 shots from any source in legendary. furthermore the nerfing of the ternion line has taken its toll on the effectiveness of the skills ability to focus damage and do it at a distance. Oracle is indeed still powerful but by no means the 'most' powerful.

You can belive me or not it really doesnt matter as i have probably put in too many days, weeks months playing this game and trying all facets of caster builds. I know im new to the forums but it doesnt mean i dont have extensive experience with the game (played it since day 1). In all honesty and in my opinion the diviner is the most powerful caster, u can make all sorts of arguments for and against everything but i ask that u give it a try before jumping to conclusions.

And who knows, maybe ull come to love it like i did :)

sorry for the long post people :P

Oh yea heres the build if anyone is interested, i think Hentei u will like this one:

http://www.titanquest.net/forums/dream/16388-adams-diviner-caster-build.html

mamba
05-20-2007, 07:19 AM
What i think u failed to read in the build and one of the highlights of the build that i mentioned is that it can tank so yes although those skills require close contact, the mere fact that i need to go up close doesnt mean instant death like an oracle.

ok, I guess I have got to get used to this caster concept ;) my Oracle actually uses Deathchill Aura too, but only because I already have all the skills I want and it debuffs those mobs that manage to get to me. So it is more like a last line of defense (and not a good one at that) rather than something I actively use.


In fact, with the use of a "shadowformed ring" i will gurantee u that i will not have to use any health pots and this build has ripped through legendary.

what is so good about that ring, I look it up and I am not at all impressed by it, the attack damage to health conversion ? can't think of anything else which looks interesting.


Although hentai hasnt played through legendary yet, I have and i will assure u that electric burn damage is increadible powerful at legendary witht the right gears.

Given your Diviner description there is precisely one set of gear which allows for this, but fair enough, most builds have a perfect set of gear, it just usually isn't coming as a set.


Howver, if best means the fastest killing speed and survivability caster than without a doubt i would say diviner beats oracle.

That is my definition of best caster ;)


Dont get me wrong i love oracles, i have a lvl 68 oracle. However, in honest truth i have played with both my oracle and other casters (i.e. elementalists, prohphet, conjurer) and my now lvl 70 diviner all through legendary and i must say, of all the casters he kills the fastest, and gets through legendary the easiest. If i really wanted to make him into a killer wrecking ball of destruction i would have respecced outta the summon outsider and sleep and pour points to max my liche king for the soul blight ability.

Maybe I'll give it a try, if so this is the build I would probably aim for

TitanCalc by stonedonkey - A Titan Quest Calculator - Diviner (http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Diviner&master1=2&master2=9&sa=21&m1=32-6-0-0-8-0-0-0-0-16-0-0-8-0-12-0-12-0-1-15-0&m2=32-0-0-1-0-8-0-6-16-0-0-0-0-8-0-12-6-12-12-8-12)

Gives me back the Lich King at the cost of some skills which I consider less important (Psionic Touch and the physical damage part of Distortion Wave) ;)


furthermore the nerfing of the ternion line has taken its toll on the effectiveness of the skills ability to focus damage and do it at a distance.

I completely agree, it was nerfed too much imo, but it still is useful, my Conjurer just is finding that out. I stopped using it completely for a while, but now have picked it up again.


You can belive me or not it really doesnt matter as i have probably put in too many days, weeks months playing this game and trying all facets of caster builds. I know im new to the forums but it doesnt mean i dont have extensive experience with the game (played it since day 1). In all honesty and in my opinion the diviner is the most powerful caster, u can make all sorts of arguments for and against everything but i ask that u give it a try before jumping to conclusions.

Fine by me, I too have been putting too much time in it, but I did not focus on caster builds but on builds in general. So they still have a long way to go, most are at their prime now tho, got all the essential skills and all the top line gear without having entered legendary, so they dominate epic easily (with the exception of my Oracle and Soothsayer which both finished legendary).

I guess I might simply create one using the Defiler and put him thru his paces to see how it works out, I don't want to spend many hours on something I then may not like ;) If I do like it, I create him anew regularily...

adamegeddon
05-20-2007, 09:16 AM
omg mamba, i didnt think u would actually read all the stuff i typed up :)

Im glad u, did otherwise i would have felt i did it all for nought :P

Yea reason i suggest shadowformed band is because its the only ring that gives u "damage convert to health" which is critical for my build since rings are the only variation on items sadly :(

with carnus set and all the bonuses ur life leech should be well over +80%, so watch with joy as u quickly leech life back to full in one or two hits ;)

mamba
05-20-2007, 12:37 PM
omg mamba, i didnt think u would actually read all the stuff i typed up :)

well, of course I do ;)


Yea reason i suggest shadowformed band is because its the only ring that gives u "damage convert to health" which is critical for my build since rings are the only variation on items sadly :(

with carnus set and all the bonuses ur life leech should be well over +80%, so watch with joy as u quickly leech life back to full in one or two hits ;)

Hm, I am not sure I understand this. The rings give about 15% attack damage converted to health combined (I can get this via an artifact or a runed green staff as well). They also give about +70% Life Leech bonus (again, combined). The Grip of Carnus adds another +40% to it, none of the other gear adds to it.

However, your build does not do any Life Leech as far as I can tell (you do not have Life Drain). So where does that life leech come from ? does it also boost the attack damage converted to health ? from the vitality damage ?

The Rock-man
05-20-2007, 01:35 PM
The Life leech is on the Band

Shadowformed Band
88% Energy Leech Resistance
20% Chance For One of the Following:
141 Life Leech Retaliation Over 3 Seconds <- here ~47 life per sec
168 Energy Leech Retaliation Over 3 Seconds
+35% Life Leech
+38% Energy Leech
7% of Attack Damage Converted to Health
+49 Energy

Required Level: 34

I agree the life steal seems abit weak, and no +% life leech doesnt effect
% damage to health (DTH), but resist debuffs do. With all of his +% leech items with ToW and necrosis the leech will be high will be. As for the % DTH ToW and necrosis again boost it nicely. I don,t know if having DTH on rings or armor lets it work with skills or not my belief is no.

mamba
05-20-2007, 03:59 PM
I am surprised this life leech is sufficient, it is a 10% chance after all (20% chance of one of two options). Even with two rings this doesn't amount to much imo, at least nothing where one or two hits fill you up again on a regular basis, chances are two hits don't even trigger it.

The Rock-man
05-21-2007, 07:58 AM
As far as i can tell he using them for there 7% damage to health with the life leech as a secondary bonus. Though if that the case 2 Greens rings with Incarnation of Anubis' Wrath would be better with ~15% DTH each.
If it for the Life leach then Legendary Bat Fang on green rings would be better 135 Life Leech Over 3 Seconds or 45 base life leech per sec.

As far as i can see the only other thing he getting is Energy leach resist.
BTW the thing is the leaches are retaliation so with 10 mobs attacking him on is sure to be effected, but against a boss it be useless.

apocalypse80
05-21-2007, 09:54 AM
Here is my little problem ;
Uber equipped chars are not proof of anything.
Ok , they are proof of the potential (the limit) of some strategy.

I don't see that char as proof that electrical burn works in legendary.
Actually , after duplicating it , I see it as proof that electrical burn is practically impossible to make work in legendary.

What?
You didn't expect me to judge an uber-equipped high-lvl char by average char standards , did you?

adamegeddon
05-21-2007, 01:04 PM
Hi guys, sorry to strir the pot, but ill just clarify some things so u know why i use em.

I use the ring for its boost to +% DTH mod and also for the added +% life leech.

Like what rockman said, i know a measely 7% isnt all that great but i have alot of +% life leech (which to my knowlegde works for DTH) i should have around +80%, (also the bonus for the completion of carnus by another %20)

However, the reason this works so well is like what rockman said due to the debuffs from TOW, necrosis so i would be able to leech substantially back. Life leech does not work on spell skills but i use it as my staff attack while waiting for my other skills like DR and DW to recharge and while letting the TOW burn nearby enemies as i basically leech off them for all they're worth.

Ur right mamba the 10% chance of leech retaliation is not very reliable but thats not why i use the ring. I would LOVE to use the anubis wrath relic but unfortunately it only applies for weapons not rings. I need the carnus staff to complete the set and make the build work hence why the limitation on the item customisation. The only ring that i could think of that offers %DTH is the shadowformed ring and 7% should be plenty considering the massive +% life leech and debuffs.

@apocalyse, i know this char is dependant on the best gears and basically u will need all the gears to make him work, and average players wont be able to find these gears and may even never complete the set (which is why i go online to trade), this is a downer for the build as it is very gear specific so yea there are disadvantages too. When i stated that electric burn damage can work in legendary i meant it in its absolute potential and i understand its limitations on ppl with mediocre items at their disposal. Hence my argument for electric burn working in legendary is directed at those who believe that the mod "electric burn" is altogether completely not viable in legendary. My point is that its possible to make a character that relies predominatly on electric burn damage and have that character be successful at legendary.

Again i will emphasise as i did in my post for the build that this build is gear dependant (and very specifically too) so if ur not able to trade for it online or having difficulty farming for it then i dont really recommend it, however if u have been farming on other chars and have collected an array of items all of which is required by this build, then i highly recommend making this char as it not only is fun but it kills fast and is survivable (u also get the 2 best pets in the game liche king, and nightmare, (also add in the Outsider ^^)

apocalypse80
05-21-2007, 01:09 PM
Not need to analyze too much.
We agree , electrical burn has potential but it's very hard to realize.
At least much harder than the more commonly used damage types.

adamegeddon
05-21-2007, 02:09 PM
Sorry if i appear to be overanalysing but thats the way i am. Always looking at detail and always giving people a detailed response where needed.

Being a 4th year law student does that to u:nerd:

Mazzox
05-23-2007, 06:16 AM
I have -100% recharge and no mobs can even come close to me even when chain lightning only does 1 sec stun due to massive spamming. My only problems now is mana cost but thats mainly because my character is still young (level 41). That problem can also be countered using permanent dark covenant and with unearthly power just makes my lightning more potent. Face it, Prophet is not as good as Oracle and Conjurer or Diviner because they don't synergise that well.
We'll i see this thread completely derailed and ignored my question. But thats ok =P
I'm now playing an oracle also, lvl 43, using chain lightning as main attack but its just not cutting it. The problem is, the only way I can get -100% recharge is to use a staff with -recharge, and their damage kinda sucks (for ternion attacks) =/
Could you maybe post what gear you are using and/or some other tips for a chain lightning spamming oracle ?

To adamegeddon: I love your Diviner build also, just that relies on gear that's - well - impossible to find =/ I mean i've been running legendary secret passage (among other places) for two weeks now and have yet to see even ONE of the carnus' set =( Can you recommend some less godly items to use while im trying to find those items ?

I'm also interested in making a Prophet, so if one of you Propheteers (heh) could point me to a GOOD guide (maybe including gear tips) for a prophet i'd appreciate it =)

mamba
05-26-2007, 04:42 AM
I use the ring for its boost to +% DTH mod and also for the added +% life leech.

Like what rockman said, i know a measely 7% isnt all that great but i have alot of +% life leech (which to my knowlegde works for DTH) i should have around +80%, (also the bonus for the completion of carnus by another %20)

Life Leech does NOT increase DTH afaik.

Psimon
05-26-2007, 12:40 PM
I'm playing a lightning-spamming oracle m'self currently - just finished Normal and hitting Epic.

Her current gear:

Diadem of the Archmage
Chiron's Loop - Starstone
Robe of Storms
Archmage's Clasp
Polaris
Touch of the Fool
Adept's Leggings
Rod of the Ancients

Not a "suggested" list, just what gear I have available & meets restrictions. Of course the Archmage's Clasp is a biggie. I've got better items waiting in the wings, natch, such as Hesione's Golden Veil, better artifacts, boots, etc. Thanks for mentioning Boreas's Fingerbone staff, very nice for a storm mage . . . . . tough choice, though, +2 Squall/+2 Skills over -15% recharge. Hmm.

I toyed with Life Leech (thought about it) early on when I found two Blood Stone rings, but nahhh. Much funner blastin' the crap of critters and watching them fly around :twisted:

adamegeddon
05-26-2007, 01:23 PM
I really really really vouch for "fingerbone of boreas" staff as it is a really great staff to debuff monsters, meaning that all ur lightning based attack will do heaps more damage. Addtionally, it will stack debuffs along with squall for some fun time :razz:

@mamba life leech may or may not affect +%DTH but the debuffs from the skills do. I actually prefer the star of elypsium ring for the big boost to piercing and poison resistances and the nice helath boost.

Boost to resistances means less damage so all comes down to choice i guess

Psimon
05-29-2007, 10:35 AM
Well, I've got my lightning spamming Oracle. With -100% (or better) recharge the kind of mayhem she puts out is truly sick. She walked through Epic - and this is at highest level XmaX mobs - and now that I just spotted Death Ward, whew. Certainly my most powerful character to date.

The only problem I have now, is that I'm spending a fortune on mana potions. I don't mind hitting stuff with a staff blast as mana recharges, but I wish that voice would shut up :confused: I know I'm out of energy! Keeping my eyes open for a good mana bonus amulet or ring, natch.

She's 60th and just starting Legendary, so, with a bunch of skill points to come in the future, I'd like some advice on a 2ndary skill tree to open up. Ice, Ternion, or Life Leech? Or even the Spellbreaker duo? Hmm. I recently came across the Soul Quencher Staff (http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/search/banshee_search.pl?_layout=TitanQuest_Items_Page&_cgifunction=search&TitanQuest_Items.id=1699) so putting points into Life Drain, Cascade, Dark Covenant and Unearthy Power is tempting. So is Ternion . . . I could spam lightning until out of mana or nearly, then switch over to a Ternion based attack with a killer staff.

What y'all think?

The Rock-man
05-29-2007, 03:00 PM
Only problem is they all cost energy including Ternion attack.

Psimon
05-29-2007, 03:10 PM
Only problem is they all cost energy including Ternion attack.

Yeah, but Ternion, for example, is ~30 pts a whack, versus ~115/300 for Thunderball or Lightning/Chain Lightning. I'm just not familar much with how Ternion works, but I can experiment, all it costs is gold to reassign skills.

I'm looking for variety over energy savings (but that would be a bonus). Something less costly would allow my energy regen to "catch up" maybe while I take a break from lighting things up.

And I think Soul Quencher looks cool :) . So does Shiva's Companion, but too bad its stats aren't wonderful. Hopefully there's more awesome Cobra staves out there.

mamba
05-30-2007, 04:09 PM
Only problem is they all cost energy including Ternion attack.

My Oracle constantly Squalls and Thunderballs anything and uses Ternion frequently, but given a high enough int I rarely need an energy potion anyway, thanks to the high regen rate.

Lightning and Ice Shards otoh are skills which drain me fast. (one Ice Shard costs almost as much as one Thunderball, but the Thunderball stuns for 4 secs whereas the ice Shard is used every second at least, same for Lightning, but there one Lightning already costs more to begin with).

Psimon
05-30-2007, 07:10 PM
I experimented with the 2nd set using Ternion/Arcane Lore, and Spellbreaker and its synergy skill as the RMB. I saw it recommended in another thread but found it to be, not worthless, but of very limited value. Its great for magic using bosses like Bandari , or shamans in mobs, but otherwise useless. I found it doesn't stop boss special attacks, nor will it even stop shamans using staff strikes.

Removed those points and dumped them into Ternion. I'm using Riddle of the Sphinx and hoping to come across a high damage staff (using it for the % chance of huge vitality damage hits). It's also apparent that I need a lot more attack speed (which effective Ternion use requires?)

It's still not a replacement for Boreas and spammed lightning strikes with the occasional thunderball (RMB). Maybe I'll try to go for an undead or demon killing weapon/skills, not sure. Eyeballing both the ice shard and life draining trees trying to determine if either ones a viable alternative. Ice is tempting as many skills and items add bonus cold damage.

adamegeddon
05-30-2007, 11:34 PM
Ice shards is viable in legendary, all u need is the Dark covenant line and ur mana regen will sky rocket to the roof. Additionally it will increase ur shards damage and is really great on mobs, mowing them down pretty fast. U wont really need -100% recharge, just enough to gte dark covenant on most of the time. Oh yea and u gotta be drinking health potions to negate DC but its a fun spell and pretty destructive.

Maurader_Chi
06-12-2007, 06:00 PM
Actually I disagree; I have a Lightning using Elementalist and it kicks butt - though I am only 3/4 the way through epic and there was a period early epic where I was getting kicked around a lot. You do have to have good gear for this - getting a good artifact that gave a nice increase to my lightning damage - seemed to put this build over the top. I can zap a mob with lightening and if anything is still walking after - my core dwelling cleans up fine. Sometimes I provide a little help to my Core Dweller with a few electric bolts from my staff.