View Full Version : Champion vs. Harbinger

03-13-2007, 02:36 PM
Alright, so I want to create a dual wielding warrior (besides my battlemage, who feels kind of weak). I have a fair amount of weaponry, including some of the new greens from IT normal (Folg and the like), and also some decent farmed gear from Epic and early Legendary (pre-it). My top candidates are currently Champion and Harbinger. My reasoning is that they both seem to compliment the weakness of the warfare class (low defense) with either self-buffs and debuffs (Champion) or stuns/charge attacks (Harbinger). Also, I've not played either of those masteries yet, so they are appealing.

I want to be able to farm bosses with this guy as well as do some crowd control. I know, I'm asking to try and do it all. :)

Here are the pros as I see them...

Champion Pros
- Heart of Oak - increased hp, total speed, and resistances
- Wolves - cannon fodder as well as another speed/damage buff for me
- Plague - one of the best skills in the game with synergies. Debuff groups.
- Briar Ward - is this fixed or still bugged? Is it of any use now in IT?
- Refresh - Not as good as it once was, but still decent I would think.
- Quick self healing

Harbinger Pros
- Stuns via multiple skills. If enemies are stunned, they can't hit me.
- Choice of trances for Melee
- Phantom Strike - I've heard its a boss killer. With high dps, is this a one shot deal or am just opening the fight with it and then avoiding/counterattacking as usual?
- Nightmare - decent pet, confusion (is this one target or AOE?), a pet buff (If I decide to go the AW route)
- Lucid Dream passives - damage and hopefully many crits with the OA% buff.

It looks like I have more pros for Harbinger (plus its new), but I have heard plague can be really devastating. Which build has decent survivability and still good dps vs. mobs and bosses?

03-13-2007, 03:46 PM
I'm doing a harbinger... I dont really like Nature... It has tons of pets which really dont deal much dmg in the end and plague needs to be cast each time you use it. Unlike the ToW. Some people dont like pets and wolves do take up tons of skill points, but their howl can boost dmg up to 70% or something... I use PS all the time. It is totally my favorite. if you can find some items with a specific type of dmg I would go Dream in a heartbeat. If you are dealing lots of pierce or vitality dmg then you will want the Debuff from ToW on everyone. If you are just doing flat dmg and minimal pierce maybe go nature. I like to think about end gear game, and what my items lean towards. and If I need health I would just drink a potion. No since in using energy since you wont have a ton of that either. from what I hear you need %attack converted to health to stay alive, without that you will always be lacking in survivabilty.

Darth Executor
03-13-2007, 08:13 PM
I have no idea why people think warfare has low defense. Battle standard, Dodge Attack, Ignore Pain and War Horn are all excellent defensive skills.

That said, go with dream. You get both dodge attack and avoid projectiles.

03-14-2007, 07:55 AM
BS is not up 100% of the time. I like to survive not only in boss fights but while jogging the country side too.
Ingore pain, is nice once you have onslaught going which isnt hard, but you dont get its full effect unless you have a steady flow of enemies; just saying...
And mostly the lack of defense comes in missing a shield, though that is an inherant characteristic of dual weild so there really isnt much to say about that.

03-14-2007, 12:22 PM
Thanks for the suggestion. I started a seer last night, so we'll see how it goes.

03-15-2007, 04:33 AM
I have a Champion lvl 65 and a Harbinger lvl 39. The Rapid healing from Trance of Convalesence makes it up for Heart of The Oak (except the 18% resistance). Your choice of either nature or dream depends on the skills more than on survivability and fun to play. Since nature is the old option i'd go for Dream. You get more active skills and a cheaper pet. You'll miss plague, but get Phantom strike which is one of the best Melee offensive skills in the game. 6 target maximum and Ternion-like damage for melee, is too good for a tank to miss. Distort reality and War horn are abit similiar, but you get much longer stun with WH and much higher damage on DR. You could skip one, but combined you'll never lack any defence at all...

My end build on Harbinger:

Harbringer End Build Level 75 (http://www.titancalc.com/TitanCalc.asp?mastery=Harbinger&master1=3&master2=9&m1=32-6-1-8-6-6-6-10-6-0-1-0-6-0-0-6-0-6-6-6-3-0-0&m2=32-0-0-1-0-8-12-6-16-0-8-0-12-8-0-1-6-0-0-0-12-0-0)

03-16-2007, 12:13 PM
First of all, I appreciate all your input. Shadowshire, thanks for the input from someone who has a higher level Champion. I feel better about my decision to go with the Harbinger now.

That build looks similar to what I'll be trying to do. A few differences I might try would be possibly incorporating warwind with + skills gear for a second AOE attack, but perhaps Phantom Strike + synergy will be enough. Also, I might try ToW together with some vitality damage weapons/charms and see if its is viable or if ToC is the way to go.

As to your build, why don't you put a point or few in Master Mind? It will give your Nightmare an additional +30% health regen (or more with + skills gear), and together with ToC it should boost his tanking abilities quite a bit (at least 3.6hp a second at level 1). I would assume Master Mind would apply to the Nightmare himself as well as any other pets (such as your Ancestral Heros who would also appreciate the damage).

My Seer just chose Warfare around level 24 so I'm a Harbinger in Act 3 normal now. We shall see how it goes.

03-16-2007, 01:26 PM
Master Mind's also worth taking if you choose to get some leftover points into Ancestral Horn.