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Creamy Goodness
03-11-2007, 08:50 PM
I'm a Hunter/Nature spec and the only points I have in nature are some points dropped in the Wolf spell and Maul. Once I got into Act IV I noticed that my wolves were dropping pretty quickly. I also realized tho that the skill caps at 16 which means the wolves cap at 16th lvl (one per point in the skill).

I guess I'm wondering if even with the skill maxed out to the wolves really have any use once you get beyond normal difficulty?

Thanks.

Darth Executor
03-11-2007, 10:02 PM
All pets get stronger in later difficulties. In fact, most people think they get much better.

Infares
03-11-2007, 10:04 PM
All pets get stronger in later difficulties. In fact, most people think they get much better.

I'm one of those :D

Pets can seem pretty fragile in late Normal but once you hit early epic you'll wonder if someone slipped some meth into their dogchow.

Creamy Goodness
03-11-2007, 10:43 PM
I don't have many points pumped into them right now. I was staying my hand on investing any more into them till I got some feed back. Thanks to both of you.

Ganymed
03-12-2007, 02:48 AM
I do not agree here.
A ranger (nature/hunter) was my first char in original TQ. Yes, in the beginning you concentrate on the wolves, because they are easy to get and help a lot - but only until legendary act 3. then the monsters get so strong, they kill the wolves far too quickly and they cant protect the caster.
In act 3 I was stuck (too less damage dealt, too much health lost) until I completely changed my strategy. I removed all points from regrowth and from wolves (until 1) and spended them for the hunting/bow ability for penetrating/scatter arrows. I tell you: that rocks! (a good bow required)

I had the luck to find a excellent green life-leeching bow I enhanced with a legendary double speed-relic. Together with a purple life-leech amulet I am now a life-leech bow master. together with "study prey" the mobs go down quickly, even black and white tigers, tropical spiders, draconians and raptors. OK, sometimes you need one or two potions for the huge amount of damage dealt, but I would never had come so far in extremely difficult act3 with the wolves (the nymph is far more useful, by the way).

best regards

moongoose
03-12-2007, 05:03 AM
In my opinion wolves were never good meatshields. The make a lot of damage but CD and Lich are much better tanks. But if Monster Lure really is fixed you can use this to keep the monsters from you. In Act 3 I have problems with wolfves, too, but also with other pets (but not so much).

Wolves are better in higher difficulties, and I think there they are the points worth. The wolves are IMO more worth than Nymph.

SancticuS
03-12-2007, 06:13 AM
I would say they are definitivly worth keeping. I pondered about them for a while ago too. I'm a level 44 summoner with a Core Dweller and Nymph at max level with all additions. My wolves are a level 8 (gone maxs them soon)and if you add all the others features: Maul, Survival Instincs and especially Strenght of the pack they will help quite a bit. Strength of the pack affects all your pets and yourself so even at the first level it adds 15% damage, 15% total speed and 4 armor to everyone (temporarely) Besides they don't have a hefty casting cost so they can easily brought back and 2 of them along with other pets are quite helpful. As stated before they might die quickly in the later acts in normal difficulty But they don't die that often even in act 4 for me and I've gone through Act 1 and 2 on epic and they REALLY help there. Most skills are quite good when you max all of their features and well worth putting some points into. Guess it all depends on how you use them.

moongoose
03-12-2007, 07:39 AM
@SancticuS: I agree with you in most points. But I think that your wolves don't die that often has something to do with your CD, which should be attacked most by the mobs, so the wolves are not attacked that often. BTW, is the provoke bug fixed of the CD?

SancticuS
03-12-2007, 08:18 AM
Yes the provoke bug seems to be fixed. The CD certaintly attracts most of the monsters. So I have no problem with that. Problem with the wolves is that they sense prey quicker then other pets and runs off to attack long before my CD even has the time to get there. So they get attacked plenty. But their survival is of course helped by the onslaught of the rest of the "gang" arriving :)

Creamy Goodness
03-12-2007, 06:33 PM
I'm willing to invest full points into them if it means they'll be useful. I kind of hit a point were I would summon them attack a group of people and they would be dead by the end. At the moment I don't have a lot of point invested in them tho so I thought "Do I wanna put points into them to make them last longer or spend points to make my character last longer?" I wanted to keep the wolves for the fun of the "character" but I also didn't want to be resummoning them after every battle. I think I'll try putting more points into them and see how I like it. After all I can always respec if I don't like the results.:headbang:

Infares
03-12-2007, 06:46 PM
For wolves to work as tanks you need maxed Call of the Wild, maxed Survival Instinct, and maxed Heart of Oak.

Means to debuff help as well, I took out Hydra with just maxed wolves/heart of oak and Squall/Plague and didn't lose a single wolf. No casting damage spells on my part other than Squall and Plague.

This was a test I did a long time ago for someone on the VN forums to demonstrate the viability of wolves.

moongoose
03-13-2007, 02:57 AM
@Infares:

My problem with wolves is, that Lich and CD draw aggro, but if my wolves attack the mobs, many of the mobs attack me. And I was not firing.

If Lich or CD attack the mobs, then I can attack the mobs without beeing attacked myself.

Ganymed
03-13-2007, 03:14 AM
Thats excatly my observation, too.
And far worse is: at least in act4 (IT) the pets generally draw less aggro than in old TQ. for example my conjuror lev.55, has almost no chance of surviving in legendary act4 due to the fact that still enough mobs attack the caster directly instead of the tank pets.
I think I have to quit this char. there is no chance to solve the game in leg with a conjuror. hope it works better with a nature char (depending on second mastery, I think)

moongoose
03-13-2007, 03:54 AM
@Ganymed:

That doesn't sound good. Most of my chars are using pets. I hope I have a chance with my Elementalist.

I don't want to say wolves are not worth, for me they are more killers than "aggro drawers", for my Ranger I will use Monster Lure (have read it is fixed).

VresiBerba
03-13-2007, 04:32 AM
What do you need to get a third wolf?

Ganymed
03-13-2007, 04:49 AM
You need max. level for "call of the wild" and items which give two additional skill points (either to nature only or to all skills or especially to that skill). then you may summon three wolves.

VresiBerba
03-13-2007, 04:52 AM
You need max. level for "call of the wild" and items which give two additional skill points (either to nature only or to all skills or especially to that skill). then you may summon three wolves.

2+ skills then. Thanks, should be easy enough.

Sin317
03-13-2007, 05:54 AM
I do not agree here.
A ranger (nature/hunter) was my first char in original TQ. Yes, in the beginning you concentrate on the wolves, because they are easy to get and help a lot - but only until legendary act 3.

yeah , because thats just 11/12th of the game ...

Mivo
03-13-2007, 02:51 PM
I do not agree here. A ranger (nature/hunter) was my first char in original TQ. Yes, in the beginning you concentrate on the wolves, because they are easy to get and help a lot - but only until legendary act 3.

I don't have a Nature character in act3/legendary (just an Oracle), but is your experience with the wolves pre-IT? I started a fresh Guardian just for IT and she's still in normal (decided untwinked and from scratch is more fun than using an existing character or one that has old-character support), but I find a lot of rings and amulets that boost pets. I imagine there are excellent items of this type later on, so perhaps that is a way to address the issue you mentioned?

Greyhawke¥
03-17-2007, 02:58 AM
For wolves to work as tanks you need maxed Call of the Wild, maxed Survival Instinct, and maxed Heart of Oak.

Agreed.

I am playing a lv64 Ranger and my wolves hold their own in Legendary Orient except against the Terracotta soldiers and the Bull boss fire attack. Saved my behind a number of times especially when facing those Draconian mages that can instakill me when they have reflect damage up. I have to stand back and let the wolves destroy them.

Sad thing is, they get owned in Normal Hades against the stupid crabs of all things. Go figure. :errf:

Infares
03-18-2007, 12:06 PM
Agreed.

I am playing a lv64 Ranger and my wolves hold their own in Legendary Orient except against the Terracotta soldiers and the Bull boss fire attack. Saved my behind a number of times especially when facing those Draconian mages that can instakill me when they have reflect damage up. I have to stand back and let the wolves destroy them.

Sad thing is, they get owned in Normal Hades against the stupid crabs of all things. Go figure. :errf:

Lol yeah, pets in general are much better in later difficulties than they are in Act IV normal. You're basically taking pets statted to be able to do semi well in acts 1-3 in normal and making them take on an act that's more difficult than what Act I Epic was in 1.20, only in act I epic your wolves have around 4k hp each after Heart of Oak bonus.

Now more than ever is when pets should get some type of bonus more closely tied to your character level than the difficulty, the old system worked okay for 1.20 but in TQIT1.1 they lose a lot of viability in act IV.

Mivo
03-18-2007, 12:24 PM
I agree that wolves, and probably pets in general, are amazingly bad in Hades. That was really a surprise, because the "decay" in usefulness was, in comparison to act 3, so sudden. No gradual declination at all, they went from being fairly robust to one-hit-kills with the spine of a papertiger. Not always, but there are numerous mobs in act 4 that simply blow them away and you can't even res-summon them as fast as they die. They die faster to them than to Typhon, and we're talking about trash mobs!

That's something that's also stopping me from working on my Ritualist, because I had intended to start her with Nature, but I'd be completely relaying on pets. My Guardian, who also uses wolves, is doing fine in Hades/normal, but she doesn't *need* pets at this point in her career.

Greyhawke¥
03-19-2007, 12:55 AM
I agree that wolves, and probably pets in general, are amazingly bad in Hades. That was really a surprise, because the "decay" in usefulness was, in comparison to act 3, so sudden. No gradual declination at all, they went from being fairly robust to one-hit-kills with the spine of a papertiger. Not always, but there are numerous mobs in act 4 that simply blow them away and you can't even res-summon them as fast as they die. They die faster to them than to Typhon, and we're talking about trash mobs!

That's something that's also stopping me from working on my Ritualist, because I had intended to start her with Nature, but I'd be completely relaying on pets. My Guardian, who also uses wolves, is doing fine in Hades/normal, but she doesn't *need* pets at this point in her career.

True, I fought harder by myself in Hades as it was frustrating to re-equip continuously to summon my wolves each time one died. Tried two 'til I just gave up and reverted back to hit and run basics. Fortunately not many creatures gave me much trouble.

I agree with Infares that the wolves Surviveability should be increased for Act 4 otherwise, my next character may have to be one that dosen't rely on them.

I've always played as a Ranger type character one way or another. Guess I'm just a sucker for that build. :)

Telefrog
03-19-2007, 11:43 AM
My wolves seem to be sucking badly in Hades. It caught me by surprise as they had been handing the beatdowns to the mobs in Act III. It's really disappointing to invest all these points into a skill tree, then find that all those points were pretty much wasted when you get to the last act in the game. I thought the typical progression in RPG's was to feel more powerful as you leveled up?

Masquerouge
03-19-2007, 12:34 PM
Well that's a bummer. I'm building up a Ritualist whose goal is to be pet-only, but if there's no way in... Hades (har har) that the wolves are going to survive act 4 that's tough.

Mivo
03-20-2007, 12:40 AM
Since it affects all pets, I think it's probably a design flaw or a bug, in which case we may see a fix in a future patch. Masquerouge, the wolves are fine everywhere *except* in act4/normal. You could always re-skill your character just for that act, then in epic go back to the pet-only build. In act1/epic the wolves rock again.