Shield Attack from Hell

[I_Raps]

So, my Enforcer is steadily advancing through Epic but she's developing a problem with the bottle - the blue bottle, that is. By Wusao, two swings into every battle she's disrupting/spellbreaking herself from depleting energy, so I'm pretty sure something is wrong.

After a quick look through her skills, I find:

Shield Attack - 206 Mana Cost.

For comparison, Batter goes from 12 to 28 - at Ultimate level, it barely costs more than Level 1 Shield Attack.

Eruption tops off at 133.

I'm guessing this is an error...

[i.n.s.a.n.e]

Originally Posted by I_Raps

So, my Enforcer is steadily advancing through Epic but she's developing a problem with the bottle - the blue bottle, that is. By Wusao, two swings into every battle she's disrupting/spellbreaking herself from depleting energy, so I'm pretty sure something is wrong.

After a quick look through her skills, I find:

Shield Attack - 206 Mana Cost.

For comparison, Batter goes from 12 to 28 - at Ultimate level, it barely costs more than Level 1 Shield Attack.

Eruption tops off at 133.

I'm guessing this is an error...

Hi there,

We set it that high for it is really insta-killer with good shield and some buff..

But you are probably right...we should make it lower...

Any suggestions how high cost it should have after more playing with it?

[I_Raps]

It's really just another melee attack in the arsenal. As a melee fighter, you have to do that over and over and over again. All those bonuses look good on paper, but by the time everything is factored in NOTHING is that special.

... And that's a good thing. This is not Highlander - there should be more than one.

I started using it regularly just lately when I picked up a Bloodthirst the Glutton, so I use it as a quick boost in health when the potion timer is running. It's a decent finishing move, but it's rare to have enough enemies in range to maximize it.

Before Bloodthirst, I mainly used it to disrupt big guys/casters because Spear Dance is a better trash-killer.

I've now modded it to double the Batter cost and that seems about right.

[i.n.s.a.n.e]

Originally Posted by I_Raps

It's really just another melee attack in the arsenal. As a melee fighter, you have to do that over and over and over again. All those bonuses look good on paper, but by the time everything is factored in NOTHING is that special.

You have not used it with strong Legendary shield and buffs yet...it really is insta-killa of the crowds. You will never use Spear dance again after you see it in action...

Originally Posted by I_Raps

I've now modded it to double the Batter cost and that seems about right.

Hehe. Well, I have never had problems with its mana cost to be frank, but when you see it as a BIG problem, I trust you. I still think it is VERY strong though...so, I would cut the mana cost half only. Then it will have similar mana cost as Shield Charge in TQ (but little higher, for it is stronger). People will be forced to suck potions or use mana leech/some mana regen skills with it...

[The Rock-man]

Since i haven't seen the ulti level of ether lets compare the max trainable skill lvl of each.

Shield attack (maxed 12 points): 157 energy 360 arc 3 targets +150 damage +18% damage and +81% chance to fumble for 5 secs.
Batter with Rend Armor (both maxed 24 points): 38 energy 145 arc 3 targets +29 damage +12% damage -75 armor for 5 secs, and -50% attack speed for 8 secs.

From this i can see where the energy cost comes from as you see SA being ~4x as powerful and therefore gave it 4x the cost, but is it really fair to do so? Surely a longer recharge time would be better.

Lets look at another skill in CC Double Kill usable with 2 weapons (according to some posts on here) cost 1 energy per attack 42% chance to use hits 2 targets 90 arc 145 damage over 5 sec's +31% damage this is miles better than shield attack if the bit about 2 weapons is true.
As 1 in 2 hits will trigger it.

[i.n.s.a.n.e]

Originally Posted by The Rock-man

Since i haven't seen the ulti level of ether lets compare the max trainable skill lvl of each.

Shield attack (maxed 12 points): 157 energy 360 arc 3 targets +150 damage +18% damage and +81% chance to fumble for 5 secs.
Batter with Rend Armor (both maxed 24 points): 38 energy 145 arc 3 targets +29 damage +12% damage -75 armor for 5 secs, and -50% attack speed for 8 secs.

From this i can see where the energy cost comes from as you see SA being ~4x as powerful and therefore gave it 4x the cost, but is it really fair to do so? Surely a longer recharge time would be better.

Lets look at another skill in CC Double Kill usable with 2 weapons (according to some posts on here) cost 1 energy per attack 42% chance to use hits 2 targets 90 arc 145 damage over 5 sec's +31% damage this is miles better than shield attack if the bit about 2 weapons is true.
As 1 in 2 hits will trigger it.

1. Sure, we will see what is the best solution, maybe we will do both, lower mana and increase recharge.

2. Double kill is passive skill though. I cannot imagine it to cost more. And the dmg you say (145), is not it bleeding?

[The Rock-man]

Ok then here why a shield has up to 250 damage on it and non spear (clubs) weapons can go up to 250-300 base damage.
Lets assume str bonuses give +50% damage and +20% from items.
Lets take the shield with +18% and +150 from SA (250+38%+50%) +150+38%= 470+207=677

Now lets take the weapon/s 275 avg base damage for SA (if this applies) 275+50%+20%+18%=517 (+207?)
For DK its 275+50%+20%+31%=552.75 and with 2 weapons its 1105.5
For SA its if weapon hits as well its 1194 or 1401 (depending if the +X damage applies to both weapons)?
Factor in DK DPS bonus its 1134.5 compared with SA of 677 or 1194 or 1401 depending on the exact game mechanics used.

[I_Raps]

Originally Posted by i.n.s.a.n.e

... it really is insta-killa of the crowds. You will never use Spear dance again after you see it in action... then it will have similar mana cost as Shield Charge in TQ (but little higher, for it is stronger)...

No, not hardly. Shield Attack is good but it's not even in the same class as Spear Dance or Shield Charge.

"Insta-killas of the crowds" are a dime-a-dozen. Shield Charge and Spear Dance kill crowds across the screen - and that's a HUGE difference. There is more to life than DPS.

As a matter of fact, my Enforcer abandoned Practicality and the club as soon as she could acquire Spear Dance for just that reason.

I don't know what non-spear-using Close Combaters use to get to the various Master Archers, purple Draconians, spell-breaking liches etc., who are my #1 targets. I can only assume they trudge over swilling healing potions, but that's not my style at all.

In fact, I'm rather curious why you ditched most of the charge skills. Each of the original melee masteries except Rogue had a way to close distance without getting riddled with arrows or spells, but in the Masteries Mod, they've basically gone away. What's up with that? Maybe I'm just not seeing them yet?

I've played all the original masteries more than once and I can tell you my melee Magician (Rogue-Earth) is easily the least powerful - even to the point of being gimped - and it's largely for this reason.

No wonder you guys felt the need to raise the Speed Caps .

[benjidatramp]

Originally Posted by I_Raps

I don't know what non-spear-using Close Combaters use to get to the various Master Archers, purple Draconians, spell-breaking liches etc., who are my #1 targets. I can only assume they trudge over swilling healing potions, but that's not my style at all.

Yeha thats one of the things I noticed with my CC character. I found a cerebus bite axe which granted charge, and even though there were better DPS weapons this was by far the most useful and the charge ability became my RMB

[i.n.s.a.n.e]

Hi there,

Originally Posted by I_Raps

No, not hardly. Shield Attack is good but it's not even in the same class as Spear Dance or Shield Charge.

"Insta-killas of the crowds" are a dime-a-dozen. Shield Charge and Spear Dance kill crowds across the screen - and that's a HUGE difference. There is more to life than DPS.

As a matter of fact, my Enforcer abandoned Practicality and the club as soon as she could acquire Spear Dance for just that reason.

Well, I have seen what I have seen...

Originally Posted by I_Raps

I don't know what non-spear-using Close Combaters use to get to the various Master Archers, purple Draconians, spell-breaking liches etc., who are my #1 targets. I can only assume they trudge over swilling healing potions, but that's not my style at all.

In fact, I'm rather curious why you ditched most of the charge skills. Each of the original melee masteries except Rogue had a way to close distance without getting riddled with arrows or spells, but in the Masteries Mod, they've basically gone away. What's up with that? Maybe I'm just not seeing them yet?

I've played all the original masteries more than once and I can tell you my melee Magician (Rogue-Earth) is easily the least powerful - even to the point of being gimped - and it's largely for this reason.

No wonder you guys felt the need to raise the Speed Caps .

Your arguments are good and I must absolutely agree with you man!

But there is a problem...we do not have ANY skill in CC to which we could assign charge ability...I was thinking about Spartan Thrust, but the skills are made in order, so it MUST be used with spears only...and there is none other skill that could have charge in my opinion.


Skills with recharge are only following:

- Timeless Strike (Chrono) - this one should work with all weapons
- Spear Dance (CC) - requires spear though
- Cleric Shield (Myst) - requires shield though

We were also thinking about assigning charge to Frenzy, but this would not solve our problem with CC...it would only make another class to have charge...

Any suggestions? And please, note we will NOT change the skills significantly, we just need to put the charge ability somewhere in CC and that is all. Heh, and it MUST be melee weapons available skill, not just spears...

My another idea (the easiest and well suited) was to increase the movement speed in Endorphin and test which value is the best... Problem with this one could be only that some players might do not like the speedy-all-the-time character...well, but movement cap is at 175 I think, which I tested and I can claim it handleable and not annoying from my point of view.